[geocentrism] Re: 666
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 16:00:05 +1000
.Again my arguments are & have been based specifically on the text and yours on
how you feel about the text...? Allen
I dunno Allen I get a lot of what you interpret of the word in this. Is that
what you feel about it?
I demonstrated the relationship of Times, times and a half has to 70 weeks and
troublesome times in the 70 weeks vision is related to Herrod as well as
Nehemiah and how it applies. Note this covered what the abomination of
desolation is Matthew mark and luke run parallel they are nod siscusing
different events surounding
Arn't you presuming here? Scripture does not say there is any parallel
connection.. Even though you may feel that it is true..
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 1:11 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: 666
Martin,
I have soundly refuted all your arguments and demonstrated the only arguments
that can logicaly be demonstrated based on what scripture states on those
points verbatim. You, as of have yet have not offered a single argument based
on scripter to either logically refute mine or logically prove your own.
Telling us how you feel about Gabriel or any other passage in scripture does
not constitute a logical proof for any argument based on scripture. Not
agreeing with a position is not the same as demonstrating it in error or
demonstrating that some other potion is correct..? All you are attempting is to
argue your points based on how you fee about the text not anything actually
found in it. "No" is not a argument that is just how you feel !
.Again my arguments are & have been based specifically on the text and yours
on how you feel about the text...?
1. Cardinal (666years) v Ordinal (666th Year) numbers of years..... and those
relationships to 596BC-70AD + 11 months. Jan of AD 70 is the 666th year while
Technically 666 years have not passed from 596 until Dec 31 AD 70 (even though
most folk would when asked say that by Sept 3 AD 70 666 years have passed due
to rounding.). In any case the net effect of 666th year and 666 years is the
same and since we don't know Nebs first month the margin or error + 11 months
is more then sufficient to cover either a full 666 years from 23Sept 597BC or
666th year from 596BC- Sept, 23 70AD ..there is therefore no argument to the
contrary found in the years layout particularly since 490 BC of 20th year of
Artaxerxes prevents any other scheme see point 3. an that is mostly independent
of the 666 years. This can't even be logialy refuted with any bases in fact
..what are you objecting too.?
By the way, you've not (to my recollection, which may be fault --
this is a pretty long thread, after all) identified precisely WHAT
you think the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the
prophet, which was to signal believers to flee Jerusalem on the
rooftops of the city buildings, actually is, and what approximate
year it appeared. It would help to know your thoughts on this,
because we're not (again, to my recollection) mind-readers on this
forum.
No mind readers needed only scripture readers.......how can you so miss the
obvious
2. I demonstrated the relationship of Times, times and a half has to 70 weeks
and troublesome times in the 70 weeks vision is related to Herrod as well as
Nehemiah and how it applies. Note this covered what the abomination of
desolation is Matthew mark and luke run parallel they are nod siscusing
different events surounding
Matthe 24:15. When ye therefore shall see
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, ..., stand in
the holy place.... 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the
mountains:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (There can only be one of
those by definition) 28.for your redemption draweth nigh.
Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which
standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that
time thy people shall be delivered, (Daniel 12:1 every one that shall be
found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the
earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting
contempt. ....... 6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon
the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7.
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river,
when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him
that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (
Revelation 12:6, 14 & 11:3) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the
power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. ( 42 months =
1260 days relation to times time and half a time)
Mark 13:14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,. standing
where it ought not, .spoken of by Daniel the prophet then let them that be in
Judaea flee to the mountains:spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it
ought not,....
Luke 21:20.
20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, ....that the
desolation thereof is nigh. 21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the
mountains;
. .... 22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are
written may be fulfilled. 23. But woe unto them that are with child, and to
them that give suck, in those days!.....
(Luke 23:27. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women,
which also bewailed and lamented him. 28. But Jesus turning unto them said,
Daughters of Jerusalem , weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your
children. 29. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say,
Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never
gave suck. 30. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and
to the hills, Cover us.
Revelation 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide
us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the
Lamb: 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to
stand?)
....for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this
people. 24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led
away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Revelation 11: 2.
..for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under
foot forty and two months)...... 27. And then shall they see the Son of man
coming in a cloud with power and great glory. ..... 31. So likewise ye, when
ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at
hand. 32. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all
be fulfilled
From the three accounts the abomination of desolation is..
1.Spoken of by Daniel, and in Ch 9 is the only discussion of the destruction
of Jerusalem.Ch 8,11 & 12 are specifically about "setting it" up and "placing
it" by Herrod's & Augustus
2. Is about the desolation of Jerusalem
3. Related in terms of A. standing where it out not B. Armies surrounding
Jerusalem which is what Daniel discuses by the prince & about the temple
No mind reading nessesary. the text plainly states "when you see" ...& "flee"
..????
About March-April AD 70 is when The Roman armies began to surrounded
Jerusalem and broke through after about a month
There is only one possible chronology based on the text not how anyone feels
about the text..How you feel about the Angel Gabrial is not a logicl argument
based in scripture
3. I most certainly did demonstrate the only correct Persian kings Chronology
that can be demonstrated and how to know that it is accurate and how those
dates relates to the 490 years in the 70 weeks & how that relates to 666 years.
Daruis the mead "of the seed of the Medes" Ruled 1 year this is not the same
Daruis as Darius the Persian, for many obvious reasons ..(namely this one is
after Belshazzar who is before Cyrus where the latter one is clearly
demonstrated as being after Cyrus)....Note: Daniel 6:28. So this Daniel
prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian. note:
at this point Daniel is ~94 years old by Cyrus's 3rd year. Daniel 5:30. In
that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
31. And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two
years old.
Cyrus "king of Persia" Ruled 3 years
Ahasuerus Ruled 12 years this is not the father of "Darius the mead"
specifically because he is after Cyrus.... Ezra 4:5. And hired counsellers
against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia,
even until the reign of Darius king of Persia. 6. And in the reign of
Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation
against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem. 7. And in the days of
Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions,
unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in
the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue. 8. Rehum the
chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to
Artaxerxes the king in this sort:....... 23. Now when the copy of king
Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their
companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to
cease by force and power. 24. Then ceased the work of the house of God which
is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king
of Persia.
Artaxerxes king of Persia Ruled 32 years...... in his 20th year Nehemiah,
490 BC
Darius the Persian 6 years recorded... not the same as Daruis the mead for
many obvious reasons ..namely this one is after Cyrus...
Ezra 6: 1. Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the
house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. 2. And there
was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a
roll, and therein was a record thus written: 3. In the first year of Cyrus
.........& Foundations of temple laid in his 2nd year those who saw the
first saw the last..
Ezra 3:12. But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who
were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this
house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted
aloud for joy:
Haggai 1:1. In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the
first day of the month, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet
unto.....8. Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I
will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the Lord
Haggai 2:1. In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month,
came the word of the Lord by the prophet Haggai, saying,..... 10. In the four
and twentieth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, came the
word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet, saying, 11. Thus saith the Lord of
hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,.... 15. And now, I pray
you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a
stone in the temple of the Lord:.... 18. Consider now from this day and upward,
from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the
foundation of the Lord's temple was laid, consider it.
What do you not understand? ..There is no other construct you can build and
be consistent with scripture? Scriptures outline of these kings utterly
destroys any argument against my points in # 4next. How you feel about the text
it is not the same as what the text states. .
4. I demonstrated the dates for these visions named in these chapters in
Daniel
Ch9 vision took place in 1st year of Daruis the mead before
Cyrus....regardless of when it was recorded What part of Dan 9:1 do you not
understand????? Daniel 9: 1. In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus,
of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2. In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of
the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he
would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. seed of the
meads is not Darius the Persian see point #3..???
Ch 10 vision took place in 3rd year of Cyrus...regardless of when it was
recorded Daniel 10
1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto
Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the
time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of
the vision.
Ch 11 vision took place in 1st year of Daruis the mead....regardless of when
it was written down. What part of Dan 11: 1 do you not understand ???? Daniel
11: 1. Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm
and to strengthen him. 2. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there
shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer
than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all
against the realm of Grecia. seed of the meads is not Darius the Persian see
point #3..???
My last comments /post on Daniel Ch 9, 10,11,12 chrono:
1. Daniel is not all given in Chronological order so there can be no argument
based solely on textual placement. See ch 6
2.The construct is the same as ch 9 for when the event is taking place
3. If that angle spoke to him in ch 10 in the 3rd year of Cyrus, there is
nothing that would have prevented that him from doing so earlier..............
OR it is now in the third year of Cyrus that Daniel is writing about what he
had been given by that same angle few years earlier....( A consolidated account
that includes Daniels present in the third year of Cyrus as well asearlier
on..[ the events that took place back in Darius 1st year....].
4 .Scripture names all those kings in ch 11:2 and there are only the five
kings listed there total. In short There is no 4 kings after Cyrus.. And the
chronological problems I addressed with the foundations of the temple earlier
would still rip any other construct to pieces....... . in short the argument or
any based on it is inconsistent with the text itself on multiple grounds..
Summary: Again you are attempting to force a meaning that is not imperative
[nor consentient] nor can be demonstrated as such against a position that can
be demonstrated and is consistent with the text.
Ch 12same as 11
Danile ch 11 can't possibly be later then Cyrus ..what in the world are you
talking about. ..!?
5. Symbology and the specificity of 666 ( specifically to the only man
reckoned as a beast found anywhere in scripture)
Are there any other outstanding issues that need to be addressed to
understand 666? No one seemed to challenge me on ch 8,11 & 12 discussing Herrod
the great or setting up or placing the Abomination of desolation..?
Demonstrate, quite or concede.you states " I know what MY answer is to the
question," I don't question this. However, to be quite frank, at this piont,
the only thing you have demonstrated thus far is your willingness to believe
what you want to believe in spite of the text, regardless of what scripture
states based more on how you feel .....You seem to only be intered in what you
or others "thought" appearently found in some comentaries..by the way you would
proably get more use out of them if as you said you would burn them...... .You
are not offering nor have you offered up arguments based on the text you are
only telling us how you feel about what is found in the text..even a non bible
student can see that .. why is it so hard for you to see?. Invoking a circular
fallacy about how others make the same error in reading you do therefore you
must be right is ridiculous ..Otherwise, demonstrate what scripture states
that would actually support your arguments.no is not a argument how you feel
about gabriel has no bering on what Gabrial or Danile or anyonese stated?
No is not a argument. How you feel about Gabriel has no bearing on what
Gabriel or Danielle or anyone else actually declared or what the texts states..?
Martin Selbrede <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen,
This is my assessment of your 5 points.
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No (especially NO regarding your still-persistent wrong timing of
chapter 11)
4. No (I think you meant 5 but wrote 4 twice)
You have been challenged on chapter 11 & 12 as regards to their
chronology, so it makes no sense to go any further on that issue
until the chronology is settled (it evidently isn't, based on this
new post). So, if it seems no one has challenged you, it's because
there's unfinished business that must be dealt with first before we
get to the substance of the various kings in Daniel 11 and their
identity.
By the way, you've not (to my recollection, which may be fault --
this is a pretty long thread, after all) identified precisely WHAT
you think the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the
prophet, which was to signal believers to flee Jerusalem on the
rooftops of the city buildings, actually is, and what approximate
year it appeared. It would help to know your thoughts on this,
because we're not (again, to my recollection) mind-readers on this
forum. Some precision in identifying it, so that nobody could
mistake what you think Daniel and Jesus referred to, would be very
helpful. A big list of scriptures with alleged connections in bold
underline comes off as hand-waving, whether you intend that or not.
Just be plain-spoken about it. Surely something so serious that
people's lives were at stake, and that they didn't even have time to
go back into their houses but had to evacuate instantly, should be a
fairly clear simple sign not requiring any convoluted understanding
of various scriptures (which may or may not even have been committed
to writing at the time) to figure out how to save your family's life.
I know what MY answer is to the question, and how the 7000 Christians
who heeded the sign fled to Pella and survived the siege of Titus as
a consequence, as Christ promised they would.
Martin
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