That's one of the most articulate responses to anything I've ever read on the 'net. It doesn't hurt that it also perfectly expresses my point of view. Good job Mike! *Whoever you are!) BTW -- I was hoping Jesus would get someone to write up a great puzzle cache page for the Holy Grail. I finally got around to reading The DaVinci Code and I'm ready to go. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Lusicic To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 4:43 PM Subject: [GeoStL] Re: New record 2,000 finds 0 hides - A bit of constructive (I hope) criticism inserted below. I don't claim to be an expert or infallible, so take it for what it is worth. Jim Bensman wrote: - Hey Tim, The issue of this particular cacher never hiding a cache has been brought up on this list on more than one occasion (with more critical language than I used). I and others have confronted them about it off list many times. In the past they have told me they cannot figure out the computer aspect of it. I and others have offered to help them.And no matter how much you try to help folks, if they feel like they are going to do a bad job or embarrass themselves, they are NOT going to act. It is just how some folks are, and trying to change that is only going to aggravate everyone involved. Sometimes you just have to let it go. They may feel guilty enough already without the need to have attention drawn to a shortcoming they may already regret. I don't know this for sure, but it is certainly possible from your description and what I have seen in other folks. If I did not mention them by name, most would know who I am talking about since it has been talked about on the list before. If they did not, all they would have to do is go to the SLAGA Stats page to figure it out. When one can easily figure out who you are talking about, I think you should mention them by name.I have no idea who these people are, so I would not know who you were talking about. I think we should let folks like me come up with our own assessments of folks without coming into a situation with only one side of a story. My message was not intended to be bashing, I just stated the facts how they are and what I felt the etiquette should be. I did not single them out either as I pointed out while they are the only ones with 2,000 and no hides, there are several others who have less than 5 and 2,000+ hides. I have spent many hours setting up caches Ma and Pa have found. It just seems to me once you take so much and get so much enjoyment over what others have done, you should give something in return. I think that is good etiquette.I guess this is a matter of semantics. Even though you "included" others, you did use the specific ID, and IMHO, that is "singling out". I agree with James Shilt that people can contribute to the sport in other ways. Some examples besides what he mentioned are helping with events, classes, etc. That is why I suggested it as etiquette not a rule. If someone was giving back in another way I would not have a problem with that. So I would amended my suggested etiquette to add on "or contribute to our sport in another manner." Etiquette is always a good thing. But it is often used as a tool to differentiate others so they can be either part of the elite or the unwashed. I have no problem with etiquette rules and guidelines. I have no problem with pointing these things out to others privately as you say you have already done. It is just when it comes to naming names and pointing fingers in public that I think it crosses the line. I also agree with NotNutts on lousy caches, but I would hope someone who has found 1,000 or 2,000 caches would be able to do a good job of setting up a cache. Jim Bensman "Nature Bats Last" P.S. When someone removed a buried cache (that violated the rule against burying caches), there was lots of bashing that person by name on this list.But if you recall, that person brought up the subject to begin with. Just as you have brought this subject up, and in the process opened it up for discussion. The back and forth of a healthy debate if you will. Of course we need to be civil in the exchange. And parts of that exchange were not. The individuals you mentioned did not start THIS thread, so there is a fundamental difference there. -----Original Message----- From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching- bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tim & Pam Ueltzen Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 3:17 PM To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [GeoStL] Re: New record 2,000 finds 0 hides - I don't think this kind of personal bashing needs to be on the free list. If someone has a problem with another cacher they need to confront them OFF LIST. Just my two cents worth. Tim -----Original Message----- From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Bensman Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 2:51 PM To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [GeoStL] New record 2,000 finds 0 hides - I just noticed Pa recently became the only geocacher to have 2,000+ finds and 0 hides. I'd be embarrassed to take so much and never do anything in return. I was amazed at how many people with more than 2,000 finds have 5 or less hides. But PA is the only one to never hide a cache. The next closest without a hide is 1,651 finds. IMHO, there should be etiquette guidance on how many you should hide per 1,000 finds. I'd think you should at least hide 5 per 1,000 finds. Jim Bensman Myotis **************************************** Our WebPage! 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