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Take a breath now, you're starting to turn blue. I, like most geocachers
want to help keep the environment in the best shape we can, but a single
illegal cache or even a couple are not going to bring about total
destruction of the world's ecosystems in the next day or two. I think why
most people would object to you removing the caches is because you declared
yourself judge, jury and executioner and took immediate action when there
are proper and courteous steps that could and should have been taken to
resolve this problem you have with the caches in question. You talk about
going to court to keep these caches out but you certainly didn't give anyone
else their "day in court" before you took action. No matter how right you
think you were to remove them, you were wrong. If you want to have that
much power, maybe you should become a reviewer for gc.com, but I doubt they
would allow that now after your actions today. Just my 2-cents.
Gale
----- Original Message -----
From: "J.A. Terranson" <measl@xxxxxxx>
To: <geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:39 PM
Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Bad Karma GCCB93 & Blue Monkey GCCB92
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On Sun, 8 May 2005, Dan Henke wrote:
I did these caches a year or so back and I am not from St. Louis...I really had no idea how to get to Emmenegger Park but I do NOT rely on a GPS with outdated mapping software to get me anywhere....and ALL mapping software out there is outdated. You need to rely on other sources as well such as the latest paper map you can find etc. I had no trouble finding the park in this way and found parking less than .10 mile away from the caches. So if you had trouble getting to the cache location I would say you need to stop relying on the needle and look up other sources before you leave.
Agreed. And while I had inklings of that lesson prior to yesterday's GPS extravaganza, we learned from that mistake and bought a map (which saved my ass today when the GPS said to turn left, *into oncoming traffic*, while on I55 :-)
Secondly, I sure hope you never do any of my caches and have any trouble or even worse not care for the way they are hidden....the caches you are talking about in your log are very inovatively hidden and while they are border line as to whether they are legal or not ...they WERE approved by the powers that be at geocaching.com....
First off, I did not call for these to be archived in the post you referenced below, so why you included it I do not know. Either you assumed that my report of a difficult cache recovery equaled a cache withdrawal demand, or else you can't keep your references straight. Either way, you need to be more careful.
Second, I personally removed them today for a variety of reasons, even though I know that Glenn considers them OK. Regardless of Glenn's opinion, these two were NOT ok.
(1) They violate both the letter and the spirit of the game. Glenn admits this, but does not care.
(2) They violated the explicit rules of the park management - on several counts
That alone would have been enough for me to REQUEST their archiving, but coupled with a variety of offline emails I received from others who have mentioned to either Glenn or to the Geocaching boys directly that this cache was (a) Illegal on many counts, and (b) TEARING UP THE HABITAT, led me to remove them personally. And they will STAY gone, even if I have to go to court to keep them gone. Anyone who thinks I'm bluffing better think again - Go check the couthouses around town and see who often I'm there to file routine papers.
Ireally do not believe you have any right to call for their removal or that they should be archived....
You are wrong on both accounts. On #1, ANYONE has the "right" to call for archiving - THAT is why there is a function built into the web page to do it. As for #2, what you think is what you think, I obviously can't change it, so I won't try.
I found them on the first try (though I was a bit lucky) and I found them very interesting
I agree, they were very innovatively placed. And when I [finally] found them, I seriously thought about whether removal was the proper response. What tipped the scales was that (a) The owner had long since abandoned these caches, even though one was completely destroyed and unusable (and the owner had been multiply notified MONTHS ago), and (b) These caches were HURTING their surrounding habitat. If I find a cache that is destroying the area it lives in, I will, repeat WILL remove it, no if's, ands, or but's about it. I don't give a good god damn what anyone else thinks either - this game is NOT designed to INJURE the areas we go into.
and had thought of placing a cache in a similar manner.
See above - while the placement was technically illegal, the "over the edge moment" was not decided by that, it was decided by the damage these were doing, and the fact that nobody was maintaining them.
If you had called for a cache of mine to be removed I would be very angry.
Then you probably shouldn't be playing this game, your ego seems to be more important than the game or the consequences of it.
Finally, there are many many cachers in and out of St. Louis who have done these caches and have found them....as Susan suggested you could have called a caching friend for advice or help....I have used this many times on caches I was having trouble with and have always received helpful information.
And guess what? Thats what I did - I posted here the log and story, and got a lot of help in return. And to those, I gave thanks! But it changes the underlying facts not at all. I will not allow a cache to remain in an area it is damaging, unless the owner/land manager is specifically aware of this and approves of it. And I don't give a dman what Glenn, you, or anyone else has to say about it either.
Sorry for the tone of this reply
No you're not. You're overgrown ego couldn't stop you.
but I don't like it when people call for a cache to be archived.
Which means you aren't thinking about WHY someone would do this. Which means we can all safely ignore each and everything you have to say.
I really think that should be between the admin and the cache placer.
No. It's between all of us and the owner/land manager.
Dan (Thunder)
//Alif (Measl)
-- Yours,
J.A. Terranson sysadmin@xxxxxxx 0xBD4A95BF
"What this country needs is a good old fashioned nuclear enema."
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