[gameprogrammer] Re: 3D C++/DirectX programmer wanted
- From: Bob Pendleton <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: gameprogrammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:32:59 -0600
On Sat, 2005-12-10 at 22:57 -0500, Laurence Grant wrote:
> There seems to be some constructive critiquing of different ideas going back
> and forth, which I guess is good, but I never expected to create such unrest
> within this forum/mailing list. If I've upset anyone I apologize for that.
No need for an apology. Nothing you have said or done is off topic for
the list and the level of discussion is pretty normal for a proposal
like yours. There are always people who question every aspect both
technical and human, the result can be pretty enlightening.
> Since I started all this with my request, I would like to make a few
> comments from my perspective. I actually sent out a similar response
> already but it seems like it was never delivered, so I'm sending it aging,
> but I'm retyping it because I never saved the original. If the original
> eventually shows up forgive the duplication.
>
> I did say I've been programming professionally for over 20 years, but after
> graduating college with a computer science degree I got into IT, not gaming.
> Although I've always had a passion for gaming since I wrote my first game at
> the age of 12, I'm now 40, with a family and a well established IT career.
A very common story.
> It's unfortunate for me, but I feel I've priced myself out of the industry.
Again, very common. Lots of people feel the same way you do.
> Below is a link where you can see I was just awarded a very prestige honor
> from Oracle Corporation, one of the largest enterprise software companies in
> the world. This is a great honor for me and a testimonial to my success.
>
> http://www.oracle.com/technology/oramag/oracle/05-nov/o65awards.html#grantan
> and
That, is pretty uncommon! :-)
>
> One of the critiques commented about a $150k-$200k salary in the gaming
> industry, and although this is nothing to but admirable, you also mentioned
> you're in CA. I live near NY, just outside of Philadelphia, and there are
> many relocation calculators that would indicate at my current salary living
> where I live now, I'd need to make close to $1.5 Million if I were living in
> CA and wanted to maintain the same life style, so you see, I don't think
> it's realistic for me to consider a career change at this point in my life.
That is also common. A lot of folks in CA were either born there are
went there without regard for what it is like to live and work there. I
used to recruit game developers to come to Austin. The one thing that
worked better than anything else was to point out that what they were
paying for a tiny apartment was less than what they would pay for a nice
house near Austin.
>
> Furthermore, even though I have over 20 years experience I have had
> discussions over the years with maybe half a dozen game companies and
> publishers who have all said it would be difficult to bring me in at the
> high end of their pay scale considering I have no track record in the gaming
> industry.
Yep. Your value is based on your last gig, nothing else.
>
> My passion is however gaming, graphics, multi-media, modeling, development
> and playing, and it drives me nuts day after day that I'm not working in
> this industry. My family however is too important to me, and if anyone must
> sacrifice I'd rather it be me not them. I fill that empty void in my life
> as the founder of 3dmuve. This is my project where I hope to someday build
> what I think would be the greatest game of all time.
I have heard that too many times to take it seriously. You should take
reviews like that with a large, very large, grain of salt. Remember that
they are reviewing what they think they are hearing after applying their
own wish fulfillment function to the discussion.
> I realize how far
> fetched an idea that is, and that it'll likely never happen, but without
> dreams where would we be? I've spoke with investors, but again since I
> don't have a history in the gaming industry they won't invest in my venture.
> Same goes for publishers.
Yep, very common. OTOH, I know of several very successful games that
were written for nearly $0 dollars that people make a living off of.
>
> I've been told if I had something very near to completion that would
> demonstrate most of the game play, I might get an investor or publisher
> interested, but there are no promises in "might", and I can't quit my day
> job on wishes. We've been around for a long time working on this project,
> but my gaming partner is also busy with his career and rarely contributes
> anymore. I too am busy with work and find it hard to contribute as I use
> to, but that still doesn't stop me from working as much as I can. Over the
> years I've built three or four engines with this project in mind, and with
> each engine I've made significant strides with new technology. But as a
> single guy working just a few hours a night when I can, I can't move fast
> enough on my own. Changes in technology come so fast that my original
> engine was quickly outdated, and required me to restructure the engine.
Chasing the technology merry-go-round is a good way to kill a game. A
good game is a good game regardless of the technology. If you do want to
chase the merry-go-round then decide what you think technology will be
like in 3 years and code for that.
>
> I truly believe my idea is unique (at least it's not been published yet),
> and every gamer I've spoken to has said this would be the greatest game ever
> if it were developed. I mentioned I've been at this for a long time, and
> had to restart many times, but with each challenge, I've learned a lot, have
> had a great time enjoying my hobby, and have been fortunate to meet some
> great people over the years.
Stop restarting and just build the game. If it is good you will be able
to update it for the latest technology. If not, well, then you can write
another game. What you are describing is the main reason most hobbyist
games never get done. You aren't really trying to write a game. You have
some other goal in mind (like creating a game engine better that what
Carmack has ever done) and are spending your time on that rather than on
finishing games.
>
> I'm not offering payment or promises, just a chance to work with some other
> people who have a similar passion on a very exciting project which may or
> may not have potential to succeed. If by some miracle the project did get
> noticed and attracted funding or a publishing deal, then the significant
> team members who have been loyal devotees to the project would surely be
> part of the newly formed company at that time.
If that is the long term plan then you need to create a company, assign
all the IP to the company, and dole out ownership to people as they
contribute. The "trust me" approach sounds like a con and turns people
off very quickly. I am not saying you are trying to con anyone. I really
do not think you are. But, since no one knows you and you have no
reputation then you can't afford even a whiff of untrustworthy behavior.
That is just the way it works.
>
> If you're already working in the gaming industry I probably don't want you
> on the team anyway because there would be a conflict of interest.
Very good point. OTOH, do you have clearance from Oracle to do this
project? Is there any way that Oracle can claim ownership of the IP that
you are creating? If you do not have a signed agreement with Oracle
granting the IP to you, then they most likely already own it.
> However,
> if you aren't working in the field today, maybe you're a student who hopes
> to work for a gaming company some day, or maybe you're like me and this is
> just your passion not your careers, then I welcome an email or AIM to chat
> further and see if we can begin working together.
>
> I don't want to start a war or anything like that, I'm just looking for some
> people with a similar interest that find my project interesting and want to
> work with other people on a fun project in our spare time.
You have not done anything to start a war, there has not been a single
posting (including this one) that is in anyway negative toward you or
you project. I suspect that you don't have a lot of experience with
public mailing lists, believe me, having a hide like a rhino is a good
start to doing a Internet based project. :-)
>
> PS: Yes this is a MMO game, which is no small feat, but most of my
> professional experience has been in the areas of networking, databases, and
> huge corporate computing, so it's this added experience that I bring to the
> table aside from my passion for gaming.
Like I said, I know it can be done because I have seen people do it. Go
for it!
Bob Pendleton
P.S.
I *am* the list owner so when I say you haven't said or done anything
outside the bounds of the list, you really haven't done anything outside
the bounds of the list!
>
> Thanks everyone and good luck in whatever you do.
>
> Larry Grant
> larrygrant@xxxxxxxxxxx
> AIM=lgrant01
> ICQ=91152597
> Hotmail/msn messenger=larrygrant01
> Yahoo messenger=larrygrant01
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gameprogrammer-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:gameprogrammer-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Nystrom
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 8:03 PM
> To: gameprogrammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: 3D C++/DirectX programmer wanted
>
> On 12/10/05, Kevin Jenkins <gameprogrammer@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > It's not that I don't think people would get involved, but that it
> > doesn't make sense to get involved. If the author said they were
> > selling the game at a monthly fee then I'd be all for it. But to do
> > something on this scale as a freeware game is highly unlikely to
> > succeed.
>
> Which would make the success of pulling it off all the more glorious. :)
>
> > Before I started in the game industry I got involved in one of these
> > kinds of things and what I'm describing now is exactly what happened.
>
> It sounds like it worked out pretty good for you. It may be worth
> doing even if there is not much hope in finishing, even if for only
> the expereince and resume material.
>
> > I think it's admirable that people will make freeware games to learn.
> > But only when it's realistic. If they were making pac-man 3D I'd be
> > supportive. But an MMO?
>
> That is sort of the trend in gaming. To do anything interesting and
> unique the games are having to be bigger, and bigger. It seems like
> these days MMO games are where its at, and if you can not get a job
> working on one, then perhaps you just have to make your own? The is no
> harm in trying, esp if that is where your interest lies.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> E-Mail: Chris Nystrom <cnystrom@xxxxxxxxx>
> Business: http://www.shaklee.net/austin
> Blog: http://conversazione.blogspot.com/
> AIM: nystromchris
>
>
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