[etni] Re: grammar question
- From: "sbshai" <sbshai@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "joseph barnett" <jophrabo@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:28:13 +0200
If you reread my message, you'll see it doesn't say that the structure in
question is incorrect; to avoid further argument, let's just say that it's less
consistent with the way we teach conditionals! My response merely focused on
a tangential issue that I consider to be as important as the preferred way to
express the sentence -- namely, the difference between what's accepted in
spoken vs. written English. (Incidentally, your use of the word "loose" was
totally out of context!)
As David mentioned, English is a rich language that allows an idea to be
expressed in a variety of ways. BTW, the idea behind this sentence can also be
expressed with a modal: "If you keep it, you shouldn't blame me ..." However,
neither the imperative nor the modal necessarily affect the rest of the
sentence: One can still complete it with "[for what] will happen"!
Your comment that we DO use such a structure coincides with what I meant about
usage; however, that is not necessarily an indication that it would receive
approval from grammar experts! (Anyway, since when are "educated native
speakers" the deciders on proper grammar?) The fact that we often say
something a certain way doesn't make it right. Consider this sentence, which
contains a common mistake: "There are less English instructors today who know
how to teach grammar." (I did not make this up! The speaker was the chairman
of the English department at a prestigious high school in the States.) Would
you say it's OK simply because educated native speakers often speak this way?
Batya
----- Original Message -----
From: joseph barnett
To: sbshai@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, 15 February, 2011 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [etni] Re: grammar question
Of course it's correct. The pedagogical grammar books usually present the
three most common conditional sentences - what may be called Future, Present
and Past. They sometimes add that there may be other structures, such as "If
you heat the water it boils." In principle, other structures are permissible if
they are commonly accepted by educated native speakers of the language
(admittedly there is debate over the use of 'native' but I can't think of
another term, except perhaps 'native or native-like'). There is nothing 'loose'
or 'informal' about 'If you keep it, don't blame me for what happens.' We do
use such a structure. It consists of the If-clause of Ist Conditional plus an
Imperative. What's the problem? Add it to your list of possible structures.
Joe Barnett
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From: sbshai <sbshai@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bnirenberg@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 3:34:57 PM
Subject: [etni] Re: grammar question
I think the answer lies in considering the difference between the strict
rules of grammar and the looser form of usage -- or, if you prefer, the
diff. bet. formal / written language and informal / spoken language.
In the case of the former, your student is correct: Since the result will
occur in the future, that's the way it SHOULD be expressed. (In other
words, this should be an example of the first conditional -- i.e., ...will
happen.)
However, your native speaker's ear is used to hearing the sentence as it's
written in the story (note that's it's part of a dialogue*) since that's the
way we often speak. No one (except, perhaps, for a grammarian or an Eng.
teacher who's a stickler for rules!) will bother to correct this because the
speaker's message is clearly understood. (That's the excuse my students
often give me when they get perfect scores on a grammar quiz, but they write
the same kind of sentence incorrectly on a test: "Oh. please, what
difference does it make? You know what I mean!")
The way I explain this inconsistency is to tell them that we're loathe to
embarrass someone publicly by correcting his grammar. In any case, his
exact wording will probably soon be forgotten. This is not the case for the
written word, however, where the error is imprinted forever!
(*I also tell students that an author is "allowed" to use the vernacular
when he writes dialogue!)
Further confusion might arise from the fact that the zero conditional uses
the present tense in both clauses (condition and result) when the situation
warrants it , as in the case of reporting a scientific fact:. I once had a
student who was so bothered by this that she insisted on saying, "Water will
freeze if / when the temperature reaches zero degrees Celsius", rather than
"Water freezes ..."!
Hope this helps,
Batya
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bari Nirenberg" <bnirenberg@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Etni" <etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, 14 February, 2011 11:13 PM
Subject: [etni] grammar question
> One of the "disadvantages" of teaching gifted students is that they're
> really good at coming up with questions that you don't know how to answer.
> My 9th graders read The Monkey's Paw and this sentence appeared in the
> story:
> "If you keep it, don't blame me for what happens."
>
> So one of my students asked me why the verb "happen" is in the present
> tense
> here, when clearly it is what will happen in the future. I know the
> sentence is correct because my native-speaker ear tells me it is (and
> because it was in the story...), but I have no idea why. Can anyone
> explain
> this to me so that I can give him an answer?
>
> Bari
>
>
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