[elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of content)

From: STILLFRANKSFAULT@xxxxxxx
To: elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:58:16 EST
Thanks Ray, six of one, half a dozen of the other. 
 
-Smoky Mt Frank-


In a message dated 2/7/2010 1:19:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

Well,  since I'm feeling contentious today, I'll give ya the definitions 
for both and  you can make up your own mind.  

Motor
–noun 
1. a  comparatively small and powerful engine, esp. an internal-combustion 
engine in  an automobile, motorboat, or the like. 
2. any self-powered vehicle. 
3.  a person or thing that imparts motion, esp. a contrivance, as a steam 
engine,  that receives and modifies energy from some natural source in order 
to utilize  it in driving machinery. 
4. Also called _electric  motor._ 
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=electric+motor&db=luna)  Electricity. 
a machine that converts electrical 
energy into  mechanical energy, as an induction motor.

Engine
–noun 
1. a  machine for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy or power 
to  produce force and motion. 
2. a railroad locomotive. 
3. a fire engine.  
4. any mechanical contrivance. 
5. a machine or instrument used in  warfare, as a battering ram, catapult, 
or piece of artillery. 
6. Obsolete.  an instrument of torture, esp. the rack.

In the first definition,  engine is used as a definition for motor.  I was 
told way back when, that  General Motors should rightly be called, "General 
Engines" since an engine was  a self-propelled device and a motor was a 
power generating device, electric or  any other type. 

So much for the vagaries of the English  language.

r



At 09:35 AM 2/7/2010, you wrote:


I take  no sides, but I did get bothered over the use of the word (motor) 
when used  to describe an internal combustion engine. Yet the use of the word 
is  everywhere. So, I go with the flow. I may never say (hey, what size 
motor ya  got in there)
ELECTRIC motor, COMBUSTION engine.
OK, just my two  cents. 

-Smoky Mt Frank-  D'OH

In a message dated 2/7/2010 11:16:55 A.M. Eastern Standard  Time, 
rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

At 07:21 AM 2/7/2010, you  wrote:




I doubt there was much computer games being played in 1350. I rest  my case.


Gaming is gambling.


Rick Draganowski

(Soli Deo Gloria)



Yes but  it isn't 1350 and the meanings of words change to adapt

to the current spoken and written language. The dictionary is not  set in

stone it's constantly being updated by having words removed and  added. Not

enough are removed though.



Robert Adams



I was gonna send an off list reply, but these two posts have led me to  put 
the whole thing here.  It's long, it's pedantic and it's  tedious.  Just 
the kinda stuff I tend to write.  Continue at  your own peril.


At 08:38 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote:


Just my point Ray. One word cannot have two totally valid meanings  and 
still be understandable in a reasonably literate sentence. That way  lies 
madness. As Humpty Dumpty said.  "Words mean what I say they  do." Humpty 
Dumpty 
declared. 'No more, and no  less.'


I have to disagree.  That way lies color and imagination.   Look at 
homonyms.  "Won word cannot have too valid meanings and still  bee 
understandable 
inn..." and so on.  These are fairly obvious when  written but can lead to 
misunderstandings when spoken.  How about  this one?


"Van Morrison and Jim Morrison were on their way to Jim Morrison's gym  in 
Van Morrison's van." or was it the other way around? "Jim Morrison and  Van 
Morrison were on their way to Van Morrison's gym in Jim Morrison's  van."  
That one is pretty old and I can't find the rest of it, but it  makes light 
of homonyms, as does the writing of Ogden Nash and Shel  Silverstein ( 
_http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein_ 
(http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein)   ) whose writings and 
poems I shared with my 
sons when they were  young.  


Then there's Bob Dylan's "Subterrainean Homesick  Blues":


Mixing up the  medicine

I’m on the pavement

Thinking about the government

The man in the trench coat

Badge out, laid off

Says he’s got a bad cough

Wants to get it paid off

Look out kid

It’s somethin’ you did

God knows when

But you’re doin’ it again

You better duck down the alley way

Lookin’ for a new friend

The man in the coon-skin cap

In the big pen

Wants eleven dollar bills

You only got ten


Maggie comes fleet foot

Face full of black soot

Talkin’ that the heat put

Plants in the bed but

The phone’s tapped anyway

Maggie says that many say

They must bust in early may

Orders from the d. a.

Look out kid

Don’t matter what you did

Walk on your tip toes

Don’t try no doz

Better stay away from those

That carry around a fire hose

Keep a clean nose

Watch the plain clothes

You donâ€™t need a weather man

To know which way the wind blows


Get sick, get well

Hang around a ink well

Ring bell, hard to tell

If anything is goin’ to sell

Try hard, get barred

Get back, write braille

Get jailed, jump bail

Join the army, if you fail

Look out kid

You’re gonna get hit

But losers, cheaters

Six-time users

Hang around the theaters

Girl by the whirlpool

Lookin’ for a new fool

Don’t follow leaders

Watch the parkin’ meters


Ah get born, keep warm

Short pants, romance, learn to dance

Get dressed, get blessed

Try to be a success

Please her, please him, buy gifts

Don’t steal, don’t lift

Twenty years of schoolin’

And they put you on the day shift

Look out kid

They keep it all hid

Better jump down a manhole

Light yourself a candle

Don’t wear sandals

Try to avoid the scandals

Don’t wanna be a bum

You better chew gum

The pump don’t work

’cause the vandals took the handles


Rational discourse?  What means that in light of those  lyrics?  But there 
was a definite message in it and it was only  apparent to those who were 
willing to look for it.  More on that  subject in my reference to Shakespeare.




Thus ends rational discourse.



BTW I think more computers are used in "gaming" (Gambling) than in  playing 
video games style "gaming". I am sure more money is  involved.


Absolutely.  Burroughs had several Medium Systems in big casinos  in Las 
Vegas in the 70s.  The stories I heard were...well, let's just  say that the 
security measures were on a par with Ft. Knox.  That was  only to handle the 
money.  With what's available now, everything has  to be wired.  I'm not 
sure what the casinos are doing now, but at one  time, people were walking out 
of them because playing for "play money"  wasn't attractive.

_http://www.zytec.biz/casino.htm _ (http://www.zytec.biz/casino.htm) Check 
this out for information about computer  controlled (or at least connected) 
gambling devices.





Another neat concept is the one where Gambling Casinos use the term  
"Gaming" to eliminate the negative connotations of "Gambling" so once  again we 
slide down the slippery slope. I wonder if you play video games  at Casinos? 
Perhaps for money?



Yes.  Video poker is a good example.  It's a representation  of 5-card stud 
poker and the video game version and the casino version are  almost 
identical with the exception of the actual money being  involved.  Another 
aspect 
is that on-line casinos and gambling is big  business:

_http://www.topusaonlinecasinos.com/_ (http://www.topusaonlinecasinos.com/) 





So just the small word "gaming" is filled with cognative dissonance  and 
means simultaneously a child hunched over an X-Box and killing  something in a 
video game and a drunken person at a roulette wheel  throwing away his 
mortgage money. Hmm.. Perhaps both. It could be that  one leads to the other. 
Or 
am I losing it?


It's one of the aspects of language.  You may be losing it, but  language 
is so filled with nuances that in most spoken (and in some cases  written) 
language is inherently ambiguous.  English is filled with  multiple entendres, 
homonyms, and other pitfalls of multiple usage.   One just hit me and it's 
almost identical in its dissonance:  "boxing."  A mental picture of someone 
happily putting a Christmas  gift into a cardboard container or two 
pugilists trying to beat one  another's brains out.  What's the difference?  





Words mean something, and alternate (and temporary) meanings are  just sops 
for the ignorant in my perhaps less than humble opinion.  



English is a polyglot derivative language.  It's impossible to be  
absolutely precise in such a tongue.  There's a good example right  there.  
"Tongue" 
can mean a  language, a variant of a language  or a part of the body or a 
part of a piece of wood or a part of a trailer,  ad naseum.   
_www.dictionary.com _ (http://www.dictionary.com /) shows 22 different uses for 
the  word.  
Now, use it as a verb and it further complicates the  issue.  There are an 
additional 5 meanings there.  Add different  conjugations of the verb and 
declensions of the noun and the ambiguity  increases almost exponentially.





So I stick firmly to my guns. And if communication means nothing to  my 
gentle readers perhaps the imprecise direction we seem to be going  into 21st 
Century "Newspeak" is the most comforting recourse.  

Well, Rick, go back your Shakespeare and you'll see that he used words  in 
much the same way.  Here's just one example: 
_http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/literary/eng211no2.html  _ 
(http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/literary/eng211no2.html) In this case, 
much cloaked reference is made to the 
characters and in  a beautiful part at the end, "morning becomes mourning."  


Another that I doubt you have much familiarity with is the lyric of  the 
song, "The Battle of Evermore" by Led Zeppelin.  Before you  dismiss it out of 
hand as you're wont to do (there's another homonym) read  the words, read 
the analysis (here's a good one:  http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=332 
) and listen to the song.   It's anything but a headbashing heavy metal 
song.  It's also the only  song in which an additional singer is used, in this 
case, Sandy Denny of  Fairport Convention.  


Here are the lyrics.  I find them beautiful:


Led Zeppelin - The Battle of Evermore


With Sandy Denny from Fairport Convention


Robert Plant wrote the lyrics after reading a book on Scottish  history. 
The lyrics are about the everlasting battle between night and  day, which can 
also be interpreted as the battle between good and  evil.

Plant felt he needed another voice to tell the story. He was the  narrator 
and Sandy Denny represented the people as the town  crier.


Queen of light took  her bow

And then she turned to go,

The prince of peace embraced the gloom

And walked the night alone.

Oh, dance in the dark of night,

Sing to the morning light.

The dark lord rides in force tonight

And time will tell us all.

Oh, throw down your plow and hoe,

Rest not to lock your homes.

Side by side we wait the might

Of the darkest of them all.


I hear the horses thunder

Down in the valley below,

I'm waiting for the angels of Avalon,

Waiting for the eastern glow.

The apples of the valley hold,

The seas of happiness,

The ground is rich from tender care,

Repay, do not forget, no, no.

Oh,-------dance in the dark of night,

Sing to the morning light.

The apples turn to brown and black, the tyrants face is red.

Oh the war is common cry, pick up your swords and fly.

The sky is filled with good and bad

That mortals never know.


Oh, well, the night is long, the beads of time pass slow,

Tired eyes on the sunrise, waiting for the eastern glow.

The pain of war cannot exceed

The woe of aftermath,

The drums will shake the castle wall,

The ring wraiths ride in black, ride on.

Sing as you raise your bow,

Shoot straighter than before.

No comfort has the fire at night

That lights the face so cold.

Oh dance in the dark of night,

Sing to the morning light.

The magic runes are writ in gold

To bring the balance back, bring it back.

At last the sun is shining, the clouds of blue roll by,

With flames from the dragon of darkness

The sunlight blinds his eyes.


There are several recorded versions of this song.  I just  listened to one 
that I'd never paid a lot of attention to before.   It's done by Jimmy Page 
and Robert Plant in a live performance with Najma  Akhtar singing the part 
Denny sang in one performance and in the studio  recording.   
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Akhtar_ 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Akhtar) 


As I listened to it, the hair on my arms stood up and tears came to my  
eyes.  It's a very powerful song when viewed as discourse between the  town 
crier and the narrator as the battle between light and dark is  described at 
two levels: 1) light of day and dark of night and 2) Light of  good and dark 
of evil.  


If you choose to listen to the studio recording (which is closer to  the 
above lyric than the live Page and Plant version) it's here: 
_www.chevyasylum.com\music\LedZeppelin_ 
(http://www.chevyasylum.com/music/LedZeppelin)  .  
It's  8mb, but I strongly suggest giving it a listen.  


Taking this one step further, blues music is filled with metaphor,  simile 
and allegory.  One could make a case for that genre to be the  pinnacle of 
hidden meanings.  This was done for several  reasons.  First, the blues roots 
of field hollers and moans dates  from the time where slaves (and later, 
prisoners) couldn't explicitly  refer to the masters for whom they worked, so 
misdirection and hidden  meaning was used.  Later, it became a bit of a game 
or I suppose one  could call it a valid musical form to avoid explicit 
lyrics.  In  Robert Johnson's song, "Traveling Riverside Blues," one can hear 
Johnson  saying, "You know what I'm talkin about?"  In the Eric Clapton  
version, he says (not sings), "That's what I'm talkin about."  In  these 
lyrics, 
they're referring to "squeeze my lemon til the juice runs  down my leg."  
Pretty obvious, but a metaphor nonetheless.


Referring back to your initial example, "Humpty Dumpty," that's  nothing 
BUT misdirection:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty_ 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty)  including  the part that you 
quote from "Through the looking 
Glass."  I was  surprised to read that what I'd read years ago about it 
referring to the  English civil war was, in fact, based on a spoof written in 
1956.   Circles within circles and mysteries wrapped in conundrums.  (Should  
that be "conundra?"...never mind, it was a rhetorical question.)  In  any 
case, in the phrase, "Words mean what I say they do." Humpty Dumpty  
declared. 'No more, and no less.' (punctuation error excused), you make my  
case for 
me in that words are defined by their user, not always by a  commonly 
accepted definition or one that resides in a dictionary.


Speaking of dictionaries, look at the archaic meanings of words and  you'll 
see how language evolves.  By strictly clinging to a  definition of only 
one period, one severely limits oneself in  comprehension.  And even if one 
chooses to accept only one period's  usage of a word, then he cannot 
accurately use definitions of other words  from other periods.  That is to say, 
that 
when using the word,  "gaming" exclusively in its 16th century form would 
then put the  author/speaker/reader/listener into the 16th century and thereby 
lose  meaning of just about every other word in a given sentence or entire  
lexicon.  




Thanks for your patience


What patience?  Here's the way I see it.  You call yourself  a writer and a 
poet.  I can call myself a writer and an editor,  because I do those 
things, too.  If you consider online content to be  "published" I have far more 
published work than you.  In my writings  (and I believe in yours, too) 
ambiguity is sometimes used on purpose and  sometimes used inadvertently.  Tead 
what I've written so far in my  Early Daze re-write: 
_http://chevyasylum.com/earlydaze/Welcome.html_ 
(http://chevyasylum.com/earlydaze/Welcome.html)   


I wish I could give you examples of your usage in this manner, but  I've 
wasted WAY too much time on this discourse and have to get on with  today's 
project which is to install online forum software ( 
_http://www.simplemachines.org/_ (http://www.simplemachines.org/)  ) on my web 
server for  
_www.saveourshipofstate.us_ (http://www.saveourshipofstate.us/)  , a project 
I'm 
working on  with a friend from the salt flats racing community.


No rest for the weary.


r
[elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of content)

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