[elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of content)

From: STILLFRANKSFAULT@xxxxxxx
To: elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:16:22 EST
Thanks, 
Well, I can not use Staten Island Frank anymore.
 
-Smoky Mt Frank-


In a message dated 2/7/2010 4:07:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

Nice.  Remind me to nominate you for a Nobel Prize in  literature.  If some 
unnamed president can get one, you otta be a  shoo-in.  :)

r
ps...I like the Smoky Mt part.


At  01:18 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote:


In the  House was a box
in the box was a fox
The fox got no air, and lost all  it's hair,
so he put on a new pair of socks.

Don't  ask.
-Smoky Mt Frank-

In a  message dated 2/7/2010 2:32:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dragan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

Ray,



We have far less to disagree about than you may think. My thesis was  this. 
Ray is writing up the technical problems and solutions involved in  
building an extraordinary computer. A word that seemed out of place in  this 
delicately communication based dialog popped up. I took exception to  it based 
on 
my knowlege. No poetry, no music, and no words for emotional  effects. 
Technical explanations. Precision in thought and language. If you  have to 
search 
for meanings then communication levels drop, perhaps to  zero.



Then it got out of hand. Sigh.



I must include a poem that means something, without interpretation and  
feelings and fuzzy logic. Also no psychoactive substances were consumed  during 
the writing.


THE BATTLE OF BLENHEIM


by: Robert Southey  (1774-1843)







T was a summer evening,  


Old Kaspar's work was done,  


And he before his cottage door  


Was sitting in the sun, 


And by him sported on the green  


His little grandchild Wilhelmine.  





She saw her brother Peterkin  


Roll something large and round  


Which he beside the rivulet  


In playing there had found;  


He came to ask what he had found,  


That was so large, and smooth, and  round. 





Old Kaspar took it from the boy,  


Who stood expectant by; 


And then the old man shook his head,  


And with a natural sigh, 


"'Tis some poor fellow's skull," said  he, 


"Who fell in the great victory.  





"I find them in the garden,  


For there's many here about;  


And often when I go to plough,  


The ploughshare turns them out!  


For many thousand men," said he,  


"Were slain in that great victory."  





"Now tell us what 'twas all about,"  


Young Peterkin, he cries;  


And little Wilhelmine looks up  


With wonder-waiting eyes;  


"Now tell us all about the war,  


And what they fought each other for."  





"It was the English," Kaspar cried,  


"Who put the French to rout;  


But what they fought each other for  


I could not well make out;  


But everybody said," quoth he,  


"That 'twas a famous victory.  





"My father lived at Blenheim then,  


Yon little stream hard by;  


They burnt his dwelling to the ground,  


And he was forced to fly;  


So with his wife and child he fled,  


Nor had he where to rest his head.  





"With fire and sword the country round  


Was wasted far and wide, 


And many a childing mother then,  


And new-born baby died; 


But things like that, you know, must be  


At every famous victory. 





"They said it was a shocking sight  


After the field was won; 


For many thousand bodies here  


Lay rotting in the sun; 


But things like that, you know, must be  


After a famous victory. 





"Great praise the Duke of Marlbro' won,  


And our good Prince Eugene."  


"Why, 'twas a very wicked thing!"  


Said little Wilhelmine. 


"Nay ... nay ... my little girl," quoth  he, 


"It was a famous victory."  





"And everybody praised the Duke  


Who this great fight did win."  


"But what good came of it at last?"  


Quoth little Peterkin. 


"Why, that I cannot tell," said he,  


"But 'twas a famous victory."  


---------------------------------------------------------------


Enough of Southey, back to the  subject.




( You left out the first line. One of my favorite songs.



Johnny's in the basement

Mixing up the medicine)



I speak of words as communication, not art. But do as you will as I  have 
only the power to explain.



Rick Draganowski

(Soli Deo Gloria)



p.s. The vandals took the handles

----- Original Message ----- 

From:
_Ray Buck_ (mailto:rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx)  

To: _elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)  

Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:16 AM

Subject: [elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of  content)


At 07:21 AM 2/7/2010, you wrote:




I doubt there was much computer games being played in 1350. I rest  my case.


Gaming is gambling.


Rick Draganowski

(Soli Deo Gloria)



Yes  but it isn't 1350 and the meanings of words change to adapt

to the current spoken and written language. The dictionary is not  set in

stone it's constantly being updated by having words removed and  added. Not

enough are removed though.



Robert Adams



I was gonna send an off list reply, but these two posts have led me  to put 
the whole thing here.  It's long, it's pedantic and it's  tedious.  Just 
the kinda stuff I tend to write.  Continue at  your own peril.


At 08:38 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote:


Just my point Ray. One word cannot have two totally valid meanings  and 
still be understandable in a reasonably literate sentence. That  way lies 
madness. As Humpty Dumpty said.  "Words mean what I say  they do." Humpty 
Dumpty 
declared. 'No more, and no  less.'


I have to disagree.  That way lies color and imagination.   Look at 
homonyms.  "Won word cannot have too valid meanings and  still bee 
understandable 
inn..." and so on.  These are fairly  obvious when written but can lead to 
misunderstandings when  spoken.  How about this one?


"Van Morrison and Jim Morrison were on their way to Jim Morrison's  gym in 
Van Morrison's van." or was it the other way around? "Jim  Morrison and Van 
Morrison were on their way to Van Morrison's gym in Jim  Morrison's van."  
That one is pretty old and I can't find the rest  of it, but it makes light 
of homonyms, as does the writing of Ogden Nash  and Shel Silverstein ( 
_http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein_ 
(http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein)   ) whose writings and 
poems I shared with my 
sons when they were  young.  


Then there's Bob Dylan's "Subterrainean Homesick  Blues":


Mixing up the medicine

Iâ€™m on the pavement

Thinking about the government

The man in the trench coat

Badge out, laid off

Says he’s got a bad cough

Wants to get it paid off

Look out kid

It’s somethin’ you did

God knows when

But you’re doin’ it again

You better duck down the alley way

Lookin’ for a new friend

The man in the coon-skin cap

In the big pen

Wants eleven dollar bills

You only got ten


Maggie comes fleet foot

Face full of black soot

Talkin’ that the heat put

Plants in the bed but

The phone’s tapped anyway

Maggie says that many say

They must bust in early may

Orders from the d. a.

Look out kid

Don’t matter what you did

Walk on your tip toes

Don’t try no doz

Better stay away from those

That carry around a fire hose

Keep a clean nose

Watch the plain clothes

You don’t need a weather man

To know which way the wind blows


Get sick, get well

Hang around a ink well

Ring bell, hard to tell

If anything is goin’ to sell

Try hard, get barred

Get back, write braille

Get jailed, jump bail

Join the army, if you fail

Look out kid

You’re gonna get hit

But losers, cheaters

Six-time users

Hang around the theaters

Girl by the whirlpool

Lookin’ for a new fool

Don’t follow leaders

Watch the parkin’ meters


Ah get born, keep warm

Short pants, romance, learn to dance

Get dressed, get blessed

Try to be a success

Please her, please him, buy gifts

Don’t steal, don’t lift

Twenty years of schoolin’

And they put you on the day shift

Look out kid

They keep it all hid

Better jump down a manhole

Light yourself a candle

Don’t wear sandals

Try to avoid the scandals

Don’t wanna be a bum

You better chew gum

The pump don’t work

’cause the vandals took the handles


Rational discourse?  What means that in light of those  lyrics?  But there 
was a definite message in it and it was only  apparent to those who were 
willing to look for it.  More on that  subject in my reference to Shakespeare.




Thus ends rational discourse.



BTW I think more computers are used in "gaming" (Gambling) than in  playing 
video games style "gaming". I am sure more money is  involved.


Absolutely.  Burroughs had several Medium Systems in big  casinos in Las 
Vegas in the 70s.  The stories I heard were...well,  let's just say that the 
security measures were on a par with Ft.  Knox.  That was only to handle the 
money.  With what's  available now, everything has to be wired.  I'm not 
sure what the  casinos are doing now, but at one time, people were walking out 
of them  because playing for "play money" wasn't attractive.

_http://www.zytec.biz/casino.htm _ (http://www.zytec.biz/casino.htm) Check  
this out for information about computer controlled (or at least  connected) 
gambling devices.





Another neat concept is the one where Gambling Casinos use the  term 
"Gaming" to eliminate the negative connotations of "Gambling" so  once again we 
slide down the slippery slope. I wonder if you play  video games at Casinos? 
Perhaps for money?

Yes.  Video poker is a good example.  It's a  representation of 5-card stud 
poker and the video game version and the  casino version are almost 
identical with the exception of the actual  money being involved.  Another 
aspect 
is that on-line casinos and  gambling is big business:

_http://www.topusaonlinecasinos.com/_ (http://www.topusaonlinecasinos.com/) 





So just the small word "gaming" is filled with cognative  dissonance and 
means simultaneously a child hunched over an X-Box and  killing something in a 
video game and a drunken person at a roulette  wheel throwing away his 
mortgage money. Hmm.. Perhaps both. It could  be that one leads to the other. 
Or 
am I losing  it?

It's one of the aspects of language.  You may be losing it, but  language 
is so filled with nuances that in most spoken (and in some  cases written) 
language is inherently ambiguous.  English is filled  with multiple entendres, 
homonyms, and other pitfalls of multiple  usage.  One just hit me and it's 
almost identical in its  dissonance: "boxing."  A mental picture of someone 
happily putting  a Christmas gift into a cardboard container or two 
pugilists trying to  beat one another's brains out.  What's the difference?   





Words mean something, and alternate (and temporary) meanings are  just sops 
for the ignorant in my perhaps less than humble opinion.  

English is a polyglot derivative language.  It's impossible to  be 
absolutely precise in such a tongue.  There's a good example  right there.  
"Tongue" 
can mean a  language, a variant of a  language or a part of the body or a 
part of a piece of wood or a part of  a trailer, ad naseum.   
_www.dictionary.com _ (http://www.dictionary.com /) shows 22 different uses for 
the  word.  
Now, use it as a verb and it further complicates the  issue.  There are an 
additional 5 meanings there.  Add  different conjugations of the verb and 
declensions of the noun and the  ambiguity increases almost exponentially.





So I stick firmly to my guns. And if communication means nothing  to my 
gentle readers perhaps the imprecise direction we seem to be  going into 21st 
Century "Newspeak" is the most comforting recourse.  

Well, Rick, go back your Shakespeare and you'll see that he used  words in 
much the same way.  Here's just one example: 
_http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/literary/eng211no2.html  _ 
(http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/literary/eng211no2.html) In this case, 
much cloaked reference is made to the 
characters and  in a beautiful part at the end, "morning becomes mourning."   


Another that I doubt you have much familiarity with is the lyric of  the 
song, "The Battle of Evermore" by Led Zeppelin.  Before you  dismiss it out of 
hand as you're wont to do (there's another homonym)  read the words, read 
the analysis (here's a good one:  http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=332 
) and listen to the  song.  It's anything but a headbashing heavy metal 
song.  It's  also the only song in which an additional singer is used, in this 
case,  Sandy Denny of Fairport Convention.  


Here are the lyrics.  I find them beautiful:


Led Zeppelin - The Battle of  Evermore


With Sandy Denny from Fairport Convention


Robert Plant wrote the lyrics after reading a book on Scottish  history. 
The lyrics are about the everlasting battle between night and  day, which can 
also be interpreted as the battle between good and  evil.

Plant felt he needed another voice to tell the story. He was the  narrator 
and Sandy Denny represented the people as the town  crier.


Queen of light  took her bow

And then she turned to go,

The prince of peace embraced the gloom

And walked the night alone.

Oh, dance in the dark of night,

Sing to the morning light.

The dark lord rides in force tonight

And time will tell us all.

Oh, throw down your plow and hoe,

Rest not to lock your homes.

Side by side we wait the might

Of the darkest of them all.


I hear the horses thunder

Down in the valley below,

I'm waiting for the angels of Avalon,

Waiting for the eastern glow.

The apples of the valley hold,

The seas of happiness,

The ground is rich from tender care,

Repay, do not forget, no, no.

Oh,-------dance in the dark of night,

Sing to the morning light.

The apples turn to brown and black, the tyrants face is red.

Oh the war is common cry, pick up your swords and fly.

The sky is filled with good and bad

That mortals never know.


Oh, well, the night is long, the beads of time pass slow,

Tired eyes on the sunrise, waiting for the eastern glow.

The pain of war cannot exceed

The woe of aftermath,

The drums will shake the castle wall,

The ring wraiths ride in black, ride on.

Sing as you raise your bow,

Shoot straighter than before.

No comfort has the fire at night

That lights the face so cold.

Oh dance in the dark of night,

Sing to the morning light.

The magic runes are writ in gold

To bring the balance back, bring it back.

At last the sun is shining, the clouds of blue roll by,

With flames from the dragon of darkness

The sunlight blinds his eyes.


There are several recorded versions of this song.  I just  listened to one 
that I'd never paid a lot of attention to before.   It's done by Jimmy Page 
and Robert Plant in a live performance with  Najma Akhtar singing the part 
Denny sang in one performance and in the  studio recording.   
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Akhtar_ 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Akhtar) 


As I listened to it, the hair on my arms stood up and tears came to  my 
eyes.  It's a very powerful song when viewed as discourse  between the town 
crier and the narrator as the battle between light and  dark is described at 
two levels: 1) light of day and dark of night and  2) Light of good and dark 
of evil.  


If you choose to listen to the studio recording (which is closer to  the 
above lyric than the live Page and Plant version) it's here: 
_www.chevyasylum.com\music\LedZeppelin_ 
(http://www.chevyasylum.com/music/LedZeppelin)  .  
It's  8mb, but I strongly suggest giving it a listen.  


Taking this one step further, blues music is filled with metaphor,  simile 
and allegory.  One could make a case for that genre to be  the pinnacle of 
hidden meanings.  This was done for several  reasons.  First, the blues roots 
of field hollers and moans dates  from the time where slaves (and later, 
prisoners) couldn't explicitly  refer to the masters for whom they worked, so 
misdirection and hidden  meaning was used.  Later, it became a bit of a game 
or I suppose  one could call it a valid musical form to avoid explicit 
lyrics.   In Robert Johnson's song, "Traveling Riverside Blues," one can hear  
Johnson saying, "You know what I'm talkin about?"  In the Eric  Clapton 
version, he says (not sings), "That's what I'm talkin  about."  In these 
lyrics, 
they're referring to "squeeze my lemon  til the juice runs down my leg."  
Pretty obvious, but a metaphor  nonetheless.


Referring back to your initial example, "Humpty Dumpty," that's  nothing 
BUT misdirection:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty_ 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty)   including the part that you 
quote from "Through the looking 
 Glass."  I was surprised to read that what I'd read years ago about  it 
referring to the English civil war was, in fact, based on a spoof  written in 
1956.  Circles within circles and mysteries wrapped in  conundrums.  (Should 
that be "conundra?"...never mind, it was a  rhetorical question.)  In any 
case, in the phrase, "Words mean what  I say they do." Humpty Dumpty 
declared. 'No more, and no less.'  (punctuation error excused), you make my 
case for 
me in that words are  defined by their user, not always by a commonly 
accepted definition or  one that resides in a dictionary.


Speaking of dictionaries, look at the archaic meanings of words and  you'll 
see how language evolves.  By strictly clinging to a  definition of only 
one period, one severely limits oneself in  comprehension.  And even if one 
chooses to accept only one period's  usage of a word, then he cannot 
accurately use definitions of other  words from other periods.  That is to say, 
that 
when using the  word, "gaming" exclusively in its 16th century form would 
then put the  author/speaker/reader/listener into the 16th century and thereby 
lose  meaning of just about every other word in a given sentence or entire  
lexicon.  




Thanks for your patience


What patience?  Here's the way I see it.  You call  yourself a writer and a 
poet.  I can call myself a writer and an  editor, because I do those 
things, too.  If you consider online  content to be "published" I have far more 
published work than you.   In my writings (and I believe in yours, too) 
ambiguity is sometimes used  on purpose and sometimes used inadvertently.  Tead 
what I've  written so far in my Early Daze re-write: 
_http://chevyasylum.com/earlydaze/Welcome.html_ 
(http://chevyasylum.com/earlydaze/Welcome.html)   


I wish I could give you examples of your usage in this manner, but  I've 
wasted WAY too much time on this discourse and have to get on with  today's 
project which is to install online forum software ( 
_http://www.simplemachines.org/_ (http://www.simplemachines.org/)  ) on my web 
server  for 
_www.saveourshipofstate.us_ (http://www.saveourshipofstate.us/)  , a project 
I'm 
working  on with a friend from the salt flats racing community.


No rest for the weary.


r

 
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11:35:00
[elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of content)

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