Prussia?
From: T. B. <scotland_above_all@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, 25 February 2018, 16:54
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello)
#yiv2207061565 #yiv2207061565 -- P
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv2207061565 Moi? Non!From:
eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of
Laertes Papaspyrou <bitoulis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 25 February 2018 16:50:46
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello) ok, anyone interested in amending their turn?
From: T. B. <scotland_above_all@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, 25 February 2018, 16:45
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello)
#yiv2207061565 #yiv2207061565 --#yiv2207061565x_yiv6382383890 p
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv2207061565 I too would say yes to first
question but that doesn't change anything so...From:
eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of
Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 25 February 2018 16:34:01
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello) I think this is the final verdict, if someone disagrees
please correct. Otherwise lets get on with the turn, with those influenced by
it allowed to change their turn.
| | Spawning of Insurrection is possible during retreat | Spawning an
insurrection forces the retreating force to retreat further |
| Makis | NO | NO |
| Yannis | OUI | OUI |
| Dimitris S. | OUI | OUI |
| Dimitris N. | NO | NO |
| Tiron | OUI | OUI |
| Laertis | OUI | NO |
| Theodore | NO | NO |
| | | |
| final verdict | OUI | NO |
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 3:40 PM, T. B. <scotland_above_all@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Trying to interpret the rules as objectively as possible, since the
insurrection corps is placed after the corps enters (an empty) area, I presume
that they do not have to continue their retreat.
As far as rule discussion and online game table manners are concerned, Tyron
has missed the golden era where we spent more time rule discussing than playing
xDImho pausing the game hurts us equally as taking a single interpretation for
granted. Did everyone "vote" on the matter?
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > on behalf
of Dimitris Stavr. <poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 25 February 2018 12:02:40
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello) only love Makis, only love
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 03:39
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello) 3:30 in the morning, I have had a few drinks, and iam
trying to comprehent Dimitris email..? I think I d rather surrender
In any case, votes are 4 to 3 that Austria should be able to raise
insurrection, but 3 to 4 that when it is raised it stops movement and provokes
battle? (Instead of retreating indefinitely?)
Also 7 to 0 that turns can be adjusted?
I am not good with maths so someone tell me
On 24 Feb 2018 10:08 pm, "Tiron" <strategija@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
There is a certain fear, sometime with good reason and sometimes not, that
arguing over rules will damage the playing atmosphere, poison the relations
between people and ruin the game emotionally.
As a consequence some people are guided by emotional satisfaction in a game,
make it is more important than other considerations and break any rule arguing
with "fun is more important than rules, so I accept your way, lets continue to
play"
Just some more philosophy :-)
On 2018-02-24 20:52, Yannis Sykamias wrote:
I am confused!!!Which is the question here??????????????
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > on behalf
of Dimitris Stavr. <poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 9:31:40 PM
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello) would be a surprise if i was more expert in rules than
you guys.not that i haven't tried in the past but when come s to interpretation
then everyone can support HIS right.
I agree with Makis that the real issue is if insurrection corps appear in any
other type of movement than normal movement. it is obvious that the rule
doesn't forbid it. on the other hand it doesn't mention it, that's why we have
this dispute. we had the opportunity to discuss this in the previous turn when
happened the same. either because it was of lesser importance, or because we
were boring to discuss we ACCEPTED it. ALL of us either we liked it or not.
Even if it was against "common sense" we accepted it because nothing was
forbiding it.having this as given we made a plan, which you should agree that
it was smart. cunning but smart. to overcome french might, neither MP or money
are enough! it wasn't based on intentions or "common sense" but on the fact
that this "trick" had been already played.
the last time i had written about "common sense" was when a retreating Russian
Corps travelled 2-3 times its normal movement, after losing a battle and during
winter, from Konigsberg to St. Petersburg, just because the rules were not
forbiding it. after that, i tried to stay on the rules. if it says so, then it
is. do i agree with it? definatelly not, i still respect my "common
sense".should we place a house rule for the insurrection appear issue? if the
way WE play it is challenging "OUR sense" then yes i agree to place one, BUT
only if we are willing to deal with anything else that is not forbiden by the
rules and still challenges "OUR common sense". till then, anything that is not
forbiden by the rules, could be subject of endless discussions.In this case I
completely agree with Yanni.
In addition, I agree also with Laertis that the "good atmosphere" should be
taken into consideration.In my opinion, it should be the 1st priority for all
of us. I have been sad and dissappointed several times (my allies know that,
Makis knows it - and that time with the Russian retreat😝) but never thought to
blame anyone, or felt that i have been deceived or anything else that could put
in danger this excellent group and all the fun (even when i suffer defeats and
loses) it offers to me.So, since Laertis mentioned it, IF we think that
something is wrong with the atmosphere (i repeat not because i lost a battle,
neither because i made a silly mistake or a serious mistake, or because some
other guy knows the rules better than me or because is more capable or more
experienced etc) THEN we shall discuss this and not rules.
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > on behalf
of Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 20:33
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello) in order to avoid extensive discussion around the same
arguments i will post "compact" replies on the issues below and i hope all
players post their opinion in order to move on!
I have no objection of discussing the use of insurrection corps but i find it
uncomfortable to discuss this issue in the middle of the turn when a similar
event occurred the previous turn.
I explained why I did not argue last time. Also agreed that the rules do not
explicitly prohibit it but they don't explicitely mention it either.
If i recall correctly, Tiron posted the previous time somewhere that he also
found that insurrection corps were also placed during withdrawals. It would be
helpful if we have some feedback on it.
In any case should we decide differently Prussia should retain the right to
amend his turn if he wishes so.
He can, it is still his turn. Unlike us who cannot, as we did not expect a
spawn & further retreat situation. Not even Laertis who already asked, or
anyone else I believe. For sure not me or Turkey either.
ok!
Now, to the essence of the discussion, i do not understand how the term "abuse"
is derived?
The abuse (obviously not intended as a abuse by you but still an rule abuse to
me) is derived from the fact that 2 things are not used as (i believe) were
intended: the spawning of the insurrection, and the interference during the
withdrawal phase of a corps. Those two combined, result to unique and peculiar
situation that - as you say - is not expressedly forbidden, but - as I believe
- was not intended nor examined.
If the rules intended to forbid the placement of insurrection corps in any
other situation then they could be simply written as "during an enemy major
powers land phase" instead of "Immediately after...". The fact that it was not
written this way leads to the conclusion that it was intended to allow their
placement under all conditions.
The rules do not state that this should be during the land phase of the enemy
but any time he crosses the border provinces, so the rules are clear here (at
least to me).Check the sentence you copied again, It does not say "at any
time". If it was saying "at any phase" or "at any time" then yes the argument
would be in your favour and I would not be having doubts it was unintended. Or
they could at least have clarified that with another sentense, that "spawning"
can happen in other phases as well. They do that for other issues in the same
rulebook. For example check the wars declarations, it is mentioned there that
wars can be declared in other phases as well, not just the political phase.
They could have elaborate here as well if that was intended.Same argument as
above, "Immediately after" is clear enough (for me at least) that it applies to
any event that triggers their placement regardless of their "timing".
As soon as the first corps entered the insurrection corps was placed in that
area so the area was not free of corps during the withdrawal
Wrong, retreat is not like movement, the retreating forces do not move on one
on one basis (there is no issue of supply anyway) but altogether:
7.5.2.10.3.2: A retreating force may never be split up.
There is none in the area when the Turkish force arrives.the result is the same
either one corps or an army..
There is no other case in the game where you retreat into an open area, but
have to withdraw again. Yes, but this does not prohibit the use of the
"ability" of these corps as it is a matter of certain conditions that they may
be triggered. The conditions are not secret so every player is aware of them
and decides if he wants to trigger the placement or not.I mention it so that
you see my case that this scenario is not intended. If it was a weird exception
of some kind, it would have been mentioned somewhere, as it is an important one.
I cannot understand why it should be mentioned somewhere since it is already
written!
If we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then we should
have treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their intended
use.I may not understand the term "intended use".I mean that their intended use
is clearly elaborated, by spawning before or after a corps moves, and by
stopping its movement and cutting supply. It does not mention is can be spawn
to force additional retreats. It believe that "if it was intended", it would
have been mentioned, as this is a particulary special case, not forbidden, but
not clearly laid out either. You chose to interpreted as you did.If this was
not intended then it should be written otherwise i consider that this was
intended!
As said in the previous point, the triggering of insurrection corps is under
certain conditions which are known to all players, so if a player wishes to
trigger them it is under his knowledge. For example in our case, if Turkey
wanted to avoid the placement of insurrections corps it could have retreated
south to Gratz. I am sure that if the battles were not in the border of the
border provinces none would have given any attention to insurrection corps...
Yes none would bother but this could come up at some other time: For example if
Turkey is at a later date defeated, or wants to withdraw after 1 day of battle,
or the same thing with a non-hostile corps happens again say in Pest, then you
could force them to move out of Austria with this scenario, making them move 3
full moves (a full month of moving) regardless of where he retreated!!! Without
placing corps BEFORE battle, only by placing a corps wherever Turkey (or
anyone) retreats, when he retreats. Even placing multiple depots does not save
him, as you still chose to push him after he retreats. If the battle is
initiated inside the border province (Pest in your example) then there is no
triggering of insurrection corps. Triggering occurs only during the entrance in
the border province.
In our case yes he could have retreated differently, but apart from the fact
that your interpetation of the retreat was not understood by us during our
planning, this only oppened my eyes that this cant be right generally speaking.
You also didn't comment this, which I find another reason that this could not
be happening:For me withdrawal is a case of everything "freezing" and deciding
where the troops go. There is no movement interruption, or battle, or
reinforce, or leaving/changing factors/corps, or any interaction of any kind.
There shouldn't be a spawing of insurrection corps either.
If there was something clearling stopping a general flow of events, I am
confident it would have been mentioned specifically. I play an Austria too, I
never use this interpretation as it is not intended as far as I am concerned.
Point taken, still as already written insurrection corps are a special case and
triggered under special events. So you should take them into account when you
make your planning!
I am not trying to steal you turn, you can replay everything, Britain as well,
if you think it was affected. I simply don't think this scenario is what was
intended, and I also don't think it is a proper game-wise way to play it. I
might argue it for a house rule even if it was specifically written like that,
and if you found it unfair I would be happy to play Austria and give you
France. ARE YOU CRAZY??? I am not selling my country!!!!!!!!!
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I have no objection of discussing the use of insurrection corps but i find it
uncomfortable to discuss this issue in the middle of the turn when a similar
event occurred the previous turn. In any case should we decide differently
Prussia should retain the right to amend his turn if he wishes so.
Now, to the essence of the discussion, i do not understand how the term "abuse"
is derived? Once again i will repeat the rule for placement of insurrection
corps
"10.1.4.1 PLACING INSURRECTION CORPS: Immediately after an enemy corps, cossack
or freikorps has entered certain Austrian border provinces, the triggers the
possible placement of the insurrection corps and the Austrian player may (if
desired) place on-map either or both insurrection corps anywhere within that
province, at their current strength".
The rulesdo not state that this should be during the land phase of the enemy
but any time he crosses the border provinces, so the rules are clear here (at
least to me).
I also do not understand why the rules imply that they should only be placed as
a hindrance to movement or cut off invading supply? I do not believe that there
is a specific purpose/use corps in the game and the rules do not direct how the
player may use his corps. Regarding the questions Makis raised, my replies in
blue
The area the Turkish corps retreated was free of corps when they entered,
therefore there should be no need to withdraw further. As soon as the first
corps entered the insurrection corps was placed in that area so the area was
not free of corps during the withdrawal
There is no other case in the game where you retreat into an open area, but
have to withdraw again. Yes, but this does not prohibit the use of the
"ability" of these corps as it is a matter of certain conditions that they may
be triggered. The conditions are not secret so every player is aware of them
and decides if he wants to trigger the placement or not.
If we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then we should
have treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their intended
use.I may not understand the term "intended use".
Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in every other case someone can
predict, or at least prepare a likely retreat path by arranging his corps; but
in the case with insurrection Austria does not have to: he only has to wait to
see wherever someone withdraws and then force him to withdraw further by
placing a new corps there, already knowing he is there!As said in the previous
point, the triggering of insurrection corps is under certain conditions which
are known to all players, so if a player wishes to trigger them it is under his
knowledge. For example in our case, if Turkey wanted to avoid the placement of
insurrections corps it could have retreated south to Gratz. I am sure that if
the battles were not in the border of the border provinces none would have
given any attention to insurrection corps...
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 15:40
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal (continued
from trello) Y: as Turkish forces enter the Hungarian province, the second
insurrection corps is raised in this area, consequently you should continue
your withdraw until you reach an open area.
L: Why withdraw? You are at war. And the use of insurrections stops the
movement by default
M: There is no further withdrawal, Turkey remains in the area together with the
second insurection that spawned.
Y: According to the rules there can be no battle during withdrawal consequently
the Turkish forces should further withdraw until they reach an open area
L: Ok. Makes sense
Well, it doesn't make sense to me, so I am calling a halt here until we discuss
this: Why insurrection spawn outside movement phase, and if they do, does it
mean that retreating corps must retreat additional areas?
To me the insurrection rule is not used as intended when you spawn insurrection
outside the enemy movement phase, because although not expressedly forbidden,
the way they are written clearly implies they are either a hindrance to
movement, or to cut off invading armies supply. I did not debate it last time
as I am a bit bored of long rule discussions, but now I see this will be
abused. What if you had the other insurection corps available as well, you also
place that *wherever* he retreats again, and Turkey needs to retreats 3 areas?
I have never seen anyone giving this interpretation before. We are encountering
this problem because we allowed insurection to spawn in retreats, and we are
into grey areas which are not explained. Which they would have been explained,
if it was intented for the insurrection to be used during withdrawal phase and
not as a hidrance to movement.
The area the Turkish corps retreated was free of corps when they entered,
therefore there should be no need to withdraw further. There is no other case
in the game where you retreat into an open area, but have to withdraw again. If
we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then we should
have treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their intended
use. Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in every other case someone
can predict, or at least prepare a likely retreat path by arranging his corps;
but in the case with insurrection Austria does not have to: he only has to wait
to see wherever someone withdraws and then force him to withdraw further by
placing a new corps there, already knowing he is there!
For me withdrawal is a case of everything "freezing" and deciding where the
troops go. There is no movement interruption, or battle, or reinforce, or
leaving/changing factors/corps, or any interaction of any kind. There shouldn't
be a spawing of insurrection corps either.
Please voice your opinions or arguments on the matter so that we can decide how
to play.I vote that insurrection corps should spawn only during movement, as in
every other game I have played.
M.