Don't get me wrong - I do want diversity. It's not the number of powers that concerns me, it's more that the addition of a new one derive from the right motives - not because we want to retire a certain character, but because we realize that the world is really lacking a certain force - say we can't figure out who could function as god of magic, for example. And I haven't heard anything yet that I'm totally against - I just want to throw a bucket of cold water on "let's make all of our characters gods" mania, if such mania even exists. > > I think the last thing to do is worry about alignment, and I would > bet a ton of miniatures Shawn Barrick would agree with me. Alignment is > restrictive and unreliable. > Is your hang-up the evil gods here? You keep coming back to them. > Yes, we could do this with a few evil gods. But it's more interesting > and diverse if you have more. Didn't you find it annoying that the > Forgotten Realm focused on Bane for so long, when there were other > deities they could have explored? Auril, Talona, Beshaba...the more > evil deities you have, the more interesting things you can do with it. > Sure, most pantheons have one evil major evil deity, but you need to > have more variety to keep interest. > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote: > > > I'd like to see some input from Shawn > > Barrick as well. He's the historian > > here! :) > > > > Personally, I think starting out with a > > handful of deities for each alignment > > is a great way to start. Most world > > systems began with one or only a few > > deities - they didn't have a full > > complement overnight. > > > > Again, we all need to decide this > > stuff, but if you look at the Norse or > > Egyptian pantheons (outside the realm > > of comics), they're really rather small. > > > > For evil gods, the Norse really only > > had Loki and Hel; the Greeks had Hades > > (and he wasn't even really that evil). > > The Egyptians had Set and Sebek - see > > where I'm going with this? > > > > > > > > I agree. Anytime we have a > > question like this, we need to put it > > to the > > > group. Damon and I both believe that > > more deities can only lead to a more > > > interesting campaign world. Jim > > believes that more deities dilutes the > > > original premise. Keith and Matt, > > what do you think? > > > > > > Damon Kline wrote: > > > > > > > I'd say then that it is something > > to be voted on. Anything where we > > aren't > > > > in complete agreement should be > > voted on by the group. What do you > > think? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx > > [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 > > 9:19 AM > > > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Tuesday > > morning review > > > > > > > > He's a bit different, in that he > > has a > > > > very well-defined personality; it's > > > > just an extremely narrowly focused > > one - > > > > anything pertaining to illusions > > > > matters; anything that doesn't, does > > > > not. > > > > > > > > My own opinion is that characters > > who > > > > had nothing to do with the recent > > part > > > > shouldn't be considered for > > godhood. I > > > > never got to explain it, but > > > > the "quest" characters we used > > recently > > > > would qualify because they were in > > > > close proximity to the Tooth of > > Dendar > > > > (and thus "known" to it). Other > > > > characters never got near it, and > > thus > > > > couldn't be summoned to the new > > world. > > > > > > > > Then again, I'm not DMing the world > > > > creation process - we should just > > > > choose an approach and stick with > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no problem with > > Betelguise > > > > as a deity, if you wish it. The > > > > > only problem is, what would he be > > a > > > > deity of? We have so many > > > > > illusionists already, that I would > > > > move for more of a personality based > > > > > portfolio. However, his > > personality > > > > is rather sketchy to me. Any > > > > > ideas? > > > > > > > > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey guys, glad everyone had a > > good > > > > > > time! I'm looking forward to > > > > defining > > > > > > the campaign world as well. > > For the > > > > > > most part, I think I'm going to > > > > keep my > > > > > > lower level characters mortal > > and > > > > make > > > > > > the higher level ones into > > powers - > > > > the > > > > > > only exception might be Marnie. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think she and Dove have > > something > > > > in > > > > > > common with both of them > > spending so > > > > > > many years trying to atone for > > evil > > > > > > siblings - it could be neat to > > see > > > > what > > > > > > they end up doing without those > > > > burdens. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other high level > > character > > > > > > that I still have is > > Betelguize - > > > > and I > > > > > > never really played him enough > > to > > > > say > > > > > > that he'd make a good god of > > this or > > > > > > that. Then again, I'd rather > > retire > > > > > > him than play him - > > > > > > opinions/suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, well that sucks. I didn't > > > > > > realize that. Oh well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick > > > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx] > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, > > 2002 > > > > 10:51 > > > > > > AM > > > > > > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: > > > > Tuesday > > > > > > morning review > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I attached it. My > > theory > > > > is > > > > > > that we can't send files over > > the > > > > > > > website. > > > > > > > I'll send it individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damon Kline wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you forgot to > > attach the > > > > > > file... :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message--- -- > > > > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick > > > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx] > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, > > 2002 > > > > > > 10:42 AM > > > > > > > > To: > > dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: > > > > Tuesday > > > > > > morning review > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was hoping that others > > > > might > > > > > > see the advantage in this. > > > > > > > > Basically, I believe we > > > > > > currently have about 15 > > deities. I > > > > > > believe > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Forgotten Realms has closer > > to > > > > 30. > > > > > > Obviously not every character is > > > > deity > > > > > > > > material, or interested in > > it, > > > > but > > > > > > it would be a way to slash the > > > > number > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > playable characters we have, > > > > while > > > > > > giving our new world depth and > > > > > > > interest. > > > > > > > > Something to think on. > > > > > > > > I was driving home last > > > > night, > > > > > > and like Damon, I was surprised > > by > > > > the > > > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > that I wanted to get rid of > > more > > > > > > characters. As much as I had a > > > > blast, I > > > > > > > > suddenly realized that > > massive > > > > > > retirement might be our best > > > > option. It > > > > > > > > keeps > > > > > > > > characters "in play", at > > least > > > > as > > > > > > NPCs, and clears our slate to > > do new > > > > > > > > things. > > > > > > > > It also should result in our > > > > having > > > > > > a kick-ass campaign world, one > > we > > > > are > > > > > > > > interested in developing, > > since > > > > we > > > > > > all have a stake in it. Just an > > > > > > > idea... > > > > > > > > I have tons of things > > in my > > > > > > head, and I will be sending out > > e- > > > > mails > > > > > > > > soon. > > > > > > > > In the meantime, I attached > > the > > > > > > current master list of > > characters. > > > > It's > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > had for the Tiamat War, but > > I > > > > have > > > > > > kept it as current as possible. > > > > Check > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > characters and see who you > > think > > > > > > might be good for our purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damon Kline wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually like that > > idea! I > > > > > > want a way to widdle down the > > > > number of > > > > > > > > > characters that I have out > > > > there > > > > > > on the planes and some of those > > > > > > > > characters > > > > > > > > > would make great > > deities. Off > > > > > > the top of my head, I could see > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > taking > > > > > > > > > some sort of deity role > > under > > > > > > Faceous and it would be cool > > since > > > > this > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > originally the world he > > was > > > > from > > > > > > along with Sinjen, D'alleva, > > > > Valeria, > > > > > > > > Opal > > > > > > > > > and Nelik. On that note, > > I > > > > could > > > > > > see Sinjen taking some sort of > > role > > > > > > > > here. > > > > > > > > > Once he regains his honor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rikus would make a > > > > cool "Tempus- > > > > > > like" demi-power, even though > > he is > > > > only > > > > > > > > > like 3rd level. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Characters I don't see > > being > > > > > > deities would be possibly Krodo, > > > > Phelan, > > > > > > > > > Erebus, Medean might make > > a > > > > cool > > > > > > god of illusions, but he would > > have > > > > to > > > > > > > > > share it with Delusia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, there is much to > > > > > > discuss... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message- ---- > > > > > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick > > > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, > > > > 2002 > > > > > > 10:11 AM > > > > > > > > > To: > > dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] > > Re: > > > > > > Tuesday morning review > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been thinking of > > > > what to > > > > > > do with those characters as > > well. I > > > > > > > > > hadn't > > > > > > > > > thought of what you > > > > suggested; it > > > > > > might be interesting. Perhaps > > we > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > some of them into > > important > > > > > > personages on that world; it > > would > > > > be a > > > > > > > quick > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > easy way to gain NPCs. > > > > > > > > > However, I was also > > > > thinking > > > > > > of making some extra people > > deities. > > > > > > > > > Basically, what I would > > like > > > > to > > > > > > do is figure out how many > > deities we > > > > > > > want > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pantheon. While I don't > > want > > > > to > > > > > > go crazy, I want to have enough > > so > > > > that > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > normal schmoe living on > > Planet > > > > > > Magnus (what, I'm sorry, was > > that > > > > name > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > approved by everyone?) has > > > > > > someone that they can turn to. > > The > > > > more > > > > > > > > deities > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > have, the richer > > mythology we > > > > can > > > > > > create. I'm not talking about > > > > > > > everyone > > > > > > > > > (although Jim had said > > > > Hiernymous > > > > > > had an interest at one time), > > but > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > be some characters that > > they > > > > > > would "throw a bone" to, so to > > > > speak. > > > > > > > > > Something to > > > > > > > > > think about, and > > something we > > > > may > > > > > > want to consider as we talk this > > > > out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damon Kline wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wholeheartedly agree > > on > > > > all > > > > > > points!!!! You would think that > > > > after > > > > > > > > > having > > > > > > > > > > played these characters > > for > > > > so > > > > > > long of a time, that it would be > > > > sad to > > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > > > > them go. But I have to > > > > admit > > > > > > that I am very excited about > > where > > > > they > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > and how they ended. I > > am > > > > very > > > > > > much looking forward > > to "starting > > > > anew" > > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > we start another > > campaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still have an > > interest in > > > > a > > > > > > few of my characters that are > > being > > > > held > > > > > > > > > > captive by the Gods, > > but for > > > > > > the most part, I am much more > > > > interested > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > starting new > > characters. I > > > > > > have some thoughts on what to do > > > > with > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > > characters out in the > > > > planes, > > > > > > but I'll save those for when we > > > > start > > > > > > > > > talking > > > > > > > > > > about it. Well, maybe > > I'll > > > > > > just throw something out there > > now > > > > so > > > > > > that > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > don't forget about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No need to respond to > > this > > > > now, > > > > > > it can be covered later, I just > > > > wanted > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > say it before I forget > > it. > > > > Do > > > > > > you think that the Riders might > > > > invite > > > > > > > > > some, > > > > > > > > > > or all, of the people > > who > > > > > > participated in the Tiamat war > > to > > > > come > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > their new world? I > > don't > > > > think > > > > > > they would offer them any type > > of > > > > > > > power > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > anything, but since > > they did > > > > > > help the Riders in fighting > > Tiamat, > > > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > > > > > they might offer to let > > them > > > > > > live a free life on the new > > world > > > > > > instead > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > being stuck in > > servitude on > > > > > > some plane somewhere. Just a > > > > thought. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > > help us to provide some > > > > already > > > > > > known people to populate the > > world > > > > > > > with. > > > > > > > > > > They wouldn't get > > anything, > > > > it > > > > > > would basically be a "Hey, > > Sorrell, > > > > > > > > instead > > > > > > > > > > of lounging around out > > > > there in > > > > > > that plane, why don't you come > > and > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > our new world?" She > > agrees > > > > and > > > > > > gets plane shifted to the new > > world > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > is the end of the deal. > > > > She is > > > > > > on her own from there. Anyway, > > > > like I > > > > > > > > > said, > > > > > > > > > > we can pick it up later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for last night...Jim, > > > > > > awesome, awesome job!! I echo > > > > John's > > > > > > > > sentiments. > > > > > > > > > > I had a blast. I felt > > > > > > challenged through the fight, > > but > > > > not > > > > > > > > overwhelmed. > > > > > > > > > > It was dangerous, but > > not > > > > > > overly one-sided. If I had to > > pick > > > > a > > > > > > way > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > Riders to "go out" that > > > > would > > > > > > be it. I enjoyed the story the > > > > whole > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > > through and while there > > were > > > > > > times when I was like "What the > > > > hell is > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > doing to us?", it was > > never > > > > in > > > > > > a bad way, more of a "I didn't > > see > > > > THAT > > > > > > > > > > coming." kind of way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So anyway, it was a lot > > of > > > > fun > > > > > > and you ended it perfectly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a wonderful > > > > time!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message--- > > -- > > > > > > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick > > > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx] > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October > > 15, > > > > 2002 > > > > > > 9:46 AM > > > > > > > > > > To: Riders II > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] > > > > Tuesday > > > > > > morning review > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I mentioned > > before, I > > > > > > thought last night was awesome! > > > > Jim did > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > great job, and the night > > > > was a > > > > > > blast. Let's recap. > > > > > > > > > > The adventure to > > rescue > > > > > > Karvas and Saurotte was nice > > and not > > > > > > > > > > contrived, yet it didn't > > > > take > > > > > > up too much of the night. I > > was a > > > > > > > little > > > > > > > > > > disappointed that we > > > > couldn't > > > > > > play that smaller group more > > > > because I > > > > > > > > > > enjoyed them, but it > > would > > > > have > > > > > > been sheer folly on Jim's part > > to > > > > drag > > > > > > > > > > that out. Instead he > > made > > > > it > > > > > > just the right length, and it > > was > > > > great. > > > > > > > > > > As he has throughout > > > > this > > > > > > adventure, Jim kept me guessing > > the > > > > > > > entire > > > > > > > > > > night. I was not aware > > that > > > > > > the battle with the Black Legion > > > > was the > > > > > > > > > > end of the adventure. I > > > > > > assumed there would be more > > beyond > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm thrilled > > > > that > > > > > > he made them the climax. If the > > > > Riders > > > > > > > > > > were going to end their > > > > careers > > > > > > as adventurers, what is more > > > > > > > appropriate > > > > > > > > > > than a final battle with > > > > their > > > > > > most hated foes? It was the > > perfect > > > > > > > > > > capper for them, and > > bravo > > > > to > > > > > > Jim for using it as the > > endpiece. > > > > > > > > > > I sensed that Jim > > felt > > > > he > > > > > > wasn't using the Black Legion to > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > full potential last > > night, > > > > or > > > > > > that they were too easy. > > > > Considering he > > > > > > > > > > killed five characters > > > > > > throughout the fight, I'm not > > sure > > > > why > > > > > > he felt > > > > > > > > > > that way. The Black > > Legion > > > > was > > > > > > doing incredibly well. Damon > > made > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > statement that they > > never > > > > > > attacked us en masse. Thank > > God! > > > > > > > Personally, > > > > > > > > > > I think Jim used them > > > > > > exceedingly well. By having > > them > > > > > > attack us in > > > > > > > > > > waves it kept the group > > off > > > > > > balance. It also should be > > noted > > > > that > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > > > or three of them at a > > time > > > > was > > > > > > more than sufficient to keep 11 > > > > members > > > > > > > > > > of the Riders busy. It > > > > made it > > > > > > seem like Amrikol had a master > > plan, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > made him seem much more > > > > like a > > > > > > brilliant strategist than if he > > had > > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > > his power and simply > > tried > > > > to > > > > > > pummel the Riders into paste. > > > > > > > > > > If Jim shot himself > > in > > > > the > > > > > > foot anywhere, it was in > > killing so > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > people in the > > adventures of > > > > the > > > > > > past few weeks. Because an > > average > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > two characters per week > > were > > > > > > dying on adventures, Faceous had > > > > taken > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > Resurrections at 7th > > level. > > > > > > This enabled him to continually > > > > > > replenish > > > > > > > > > > the ranks of the Riders > > from > > > > > > the dead characters. If he had > > not > > > > done > > > > > > > > > > that, the Riders would > > have > > > > > > been in a lot more trouble. > > They > > > > would > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > survived, I think, but > > it > > > > would > > > > > > have been by the skin of their > > > > teeth. > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the fight > > was > > > > > > great. It moved quite quickly; > > for > > > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > > that does not have as > > firm a > > > > > > grasp of the rules as he did in > > > > second > > > > > > > > > > edition, Jim kept things > > > > moving > > > > > > so smoothly. And considering > > that > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > of the players had more > > than > > > > > > one character, we moved quickly > > as > > > > well. > > > > > > > > > > There was a palpable > > sense > > > > of > > > > > > danger the entire time, and > > death > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > constantly present. I > > just > > > > > > can't say how much fun I > > thought it > > > > was. > > > > > > > > > > The was the perfect mix > > of > > > > > > danger and excitement. I didn't > > > > feel > > > > > > > > > > completely overwhelmed > > and I > > > > > > didn't feel like it was easy. > > It > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > great. > > > > > > > > > > One side note. > > Amrikol > > > > > > broke his Staff of Power in a > > > > > > retributive > > > > > > > > > > strike. I was > > surprised as > > > > > > hell, and said as much. I > > think Jim > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > > > > I was fighting him on > > it. I > > > > > > was not. The villains are > > allowed > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > surprise me, and I am > > not > > > > privy > > > > > > to their thoughts. I was not > > trying > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > challenge Jim's ruling; > > I > > > > was > > > > > > just surprised. No doubt that > > was > > > > > > > > > > Amrikol's plan, as he > > > > probably > > > > > > assumed the Riders wouldn't > > think > > > > him > > > > > > > > > > capable of doing that. > > In > > > > that > > > > > > respect, it worked brilliantly. > > > > But I > > > > > > > > > > just wanted to make it > > > > clear I > > > > > > was not disagreeing with what > > Jim > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > doing; I was just > > amazed he > > > > did > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll start sending > > out > > > > e- > > > > > > mail on the new gods and their > > world > > > > > > > today > > > > > > > > > > and through the week > > (expect > > > > > > them to start this afternoon). > > Jim > > > > did > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > bang-up job, and here's > > a > > > > thank > > > > > > you from me! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Binary/unsupported file > > > > stripped > > > > > > by Ecartis -- > > > > > > > > -- Type: application/msword > > > > > > > > -- File: the list.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >