[dungeoncrawl] Re: Tuesday morning review
- From: Johnathan Detrick <jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:04:20 -0400
I think the last thing to do is worry about alignment, and I would
bet a ton of miniatures Shawn Barrick would agree with me. Alignment is
restrictive and unreliable.
Is your hang-up the evil gods here? You keep coming back to them.
Yes, we could do this with a few evil gods. But it's more interesting
and diverse if you have more. Didn't you find it annoying that the
Forgotten Realm focused on Bane for so long, when there were other
deities they could have explored? Auril, Talona, Beshaba...the more
evil deities you have, the more interesting things you can do with it.
Sure, most pantheons have one evil major evil deity, but you need to
have more variety to keep interest.
jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> I'd like to see some input from Shawn
> Barrick as well. He's the historian
> here! :)
>
> Personally, I think starting out with a
> handful of deities for each alignment
> is a great way to start. Most world
> systems began with one or only a few
> deities - they didn't have a full
> complement overnight.
>
> Again, we all need to decide this
> stuff, but if you look at the Norse or
> Egyptian pantheons (outside the realm
> of comics), they're really rather small.
>
> For evil gods, the Norse really only
> had Loki and Hel; the Greeks had Hades
> (and he wasn't even really that evil).
> The Egyptians had Set and Sebek - see
> where I'm going with this?
>
> >
> > I agree. Anytime we have a
> question like this, we need to put it
> to the
> > group. Damon and I both believe that
> more deities can only lead to a more
> > interesting campaign world. Jim
> believes that more deities dilutes the
> > original premise. Keith and Matt,
> what do you think?
> >
> > Damon Kline wrote:
> >
> > > I'd say then that it is something
> to be voted on. Anything where we
> aren't
> > > in complete agreement should be
> voted on by the group. What do you
> think?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002
> 9:19 AM
> > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Tuesday
> morning review
> > >
> > > He's a bit different, in that he
> has a
> > > very well-defined personality; it's
> > > just an extremely narrowly focused
> one -
> > > anything pertaining to illusions
> > > matters; anything that doesn't, does
> > > not.
> > >
> > > My own opinion is that characters
> who
> > > had nothing to do with the recent
> part
> > > shouldn't be considered for
> godhood. I
> > > never got to explain it, but
> > > the "quest" characters we used
> recently
> > > would qualify because they were in
> > > close proximity to the Tooth of
> Dendar
> > > (and thus "known" to it). Other
> > > characters never got near it, and
> thus
> > > couldn't be summoned to the new
> world.
> > >
> > > Then again, I'm not DMing the world
> > > creation process - we should just
> > > choose an approach and stick with
> it.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I have no problem with
> Betelguise
> > > as a deity, if you wish it. The
> > > > only problem is, what would he be
> a
> > > deity of? We have so many
> > > > illusionists already, that I would
> > > move for more of a personality based
> > > > portfolio. However, his
> personality
> > > is rather sketchy to me. Any
> > > > ideas?
> > > >
> > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey guys, glad everyone had a
> good
> > > > > time! I'm looking forward to
> > > defining
> > > > > the campaign world as well.
> For the
> > > > > most part, I think I'm going to
> > > keep my
> > > > > lower level characters mortal
> and
> > > make
> > > > > the higher level ones into
> powers -
> > > the
> > > > > only exception might be Marnie.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think she and Dove have
> something
> > > in
> > > > > common with both of them
> spending so
> > > > > many years trying to atone for
> evil
> > > > > siblings - it could be neat to
> see
> > > what
> > > > > they end up doing without those
> > > burdens.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only other high level
> character
> > > > > that I still have is
> Betelguize -
> > > and I
> > > > > never really played him enough
> to
> > > say
> > > > > that he'd make a good god of
> this or
> > > > > that. Then again, I'd rather
> retire
> > > > > him than play him -
> > > > > opinions/suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, well that sucks. I didn't
> > > > > realize that. Oh well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick
> > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15,
> 2002
> > > 10:51
> > > > > AM
> > > > > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re:
> > > Tuesday
> > > > > morning review
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, I attached it. My
> theory
> > > is
> > > > > that we can't send files over
> the
> > > > > > website.
> > > > > > I'll send it individually.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Damon Kline wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you forgot to
> attach the
> > > > > file... :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick
> > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15,
> 2002
> > > > > 10:42 AM
> > > > > > > To:
> dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re:
> > > Tuesday
> > > > > morning review
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was hoping that others
> > > might
> > > > > see the advantage in this.
> > > > > > > Basically, I believe we
> > > > > currently have about 15
> deities. I
> > > > > believe
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Forgotten Realms has closer
> to
> > > 30.
> > > > > Obviously not every character is
> > > deity
> > > > > > > material, or interested in
> it,
> > > but
> > > > > it would be a way to slash the
> > > number
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > playable characters we have,
> > > while
> > > > > giving our new world depth and
> > > > > > interest.
> > > > > > > Something to think on.
> > > > > > > I was driving home last
> > > night,
> > > > > and like Damon, I was surprised
> by
> > > the
> > > > > > > fact
> > > > > > > that I wanted to get rid of
> more
> > > > > characters. As much as I had a
> > > blast, I
> > > > > > > suddenly realized that
> massive
> > > > > retirement might be our best
> > > option. It
> > > > > > > keeps
> > > > > > > characters "in play", at
> least
> > > as
> > > > > NPCs, and clears our slate to
> do new
> > > > > > > things.
> > > > > > > It also should result in our
> > > having
> > > > > a kick-ass campaign world, one
> we
> > > are
> > > > > > > interested in developing,
> since
> > > we
> > > > > all have a stake in it. Just an
> > > > > > idea...
> > > > > > > I have tons of things
> in my
> > > > > head, and I will be sending out
> e-
> > > mails
> > > > > > > soon.
> > > > > > > In the meantime, I attached
> the
> > > > > current master list of
> characters.
> > > It's
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > had for the Tiamat War, but
> I
> > > have
> > > > > kept it as current as possible.
> > > Check
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > characters and see who you
> think
> > > > > might be good for our purposes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Damon Kline wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I actually like that
> idea! I
> > > > > want a way to widdle down the
> > > number of
> > > > > > > > characters that I have out
> > > there
> > > > > on the planes and some of those
> > > > > > > characters
> > > > > > > > would make great
> deities. Off
> > > > > the top of my head, I could see
> > > Marcus
> > > > > > > taking
> > > > > > > > some sort of deity role
> under
> > > > > Faceous and it would be cool
> since
> > > this
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > originally the world he
> was
> > > from
> > > > > along with Sinjen, D'alleva,
> > > Valeria,
> > > > > > > Opal
> > > > > > > > and Nelik. On that note,
> I
> > > could
> > > > > see Sinjen taking some sort of
> role
> > > > > > > here.
> > > > > > > > Once he regains his honor.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rikus would make a
> > > cool "Tempus-
> > > > > like" demi-power, even though
> he is
> > > only
> > > > > > > > like 3rd level. :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Characters I don't see
> being
> > > > > deities would be possibly Krodo,
> > > Phelan,
> > > > > > > > Erebus, Medean might make
> a
> > > cool
> > > > > god of illusions, but he would
> have
> > > to
> > > > > > > > share it with Delusia.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anyway, there is much to
> > > > > discuss...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick
> > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15,
> > > 2002
> > > > > 10:11 AM
> > > > > > > > To:
> dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl]
> Re:
> > > > > Tuesday morning review
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've been thinking of
> > > what to
> > > > > do with those characters as
> well. I
> > > > > > > > hadn't
> > > > > > > > thought of what you
> > > suggested; it
> > > > > might be interesting. Perhaps
> we
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > some of them into
> important
> > > > > personages on that world; it
> would
> > > be a
> > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > easy way to gain NPCs.
> > > > > > > > However, I was also
> > > thinking
> > > > > of making some extra people
> deities.
> > > > > > > > Basically, what I would
> like
> > > to
> > > > > do is figure out how many
> deities we
> > > > > > want
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > pantheon. While I don't
> want
> > > to
> > > > > go crazy, I want to have enough
> so
> > > that
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > normal schmoe living on
> Planet
> > > > > Magnus (what, I'm sorry, was
> that
> > > name
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > approved by everyone?) has
> > > > > someone that they can turn to.
> The
> > > more
> > > > > > > deities
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > have, the richer
> mythology we
> > > can
> > > > > create. I'm not talking about
> > > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > (although Jim had said
> > > Hiernymous
> > > > > had an interest at one time),
> but
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > be some characters that
> they
> > > > > would "throw a bone" to, so to
> > > speak.
> > > > > > > > Something to
> > > > > > > > think about, and
> something we
> > > may
> > > > > want to consider as we talk this
> > > out.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Damon Kline wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I wholeheartedly agree
> on
> > > all
> > > > > points!!!! You would think that
> > > after
> > > > > > > > having
> > > > > > > > > played these characters
> for
> > > so
> > > > > long of a time, that it would be
> > > sad to
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > them go. But I have to
> > > admit
> > > > > that I am very excited about
> where
> > > they
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > and how they ended. I
> am
> > > very
> > > > > much looking forward
> to "starting
> > > anew"
> > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > we start another
> campaign.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I still have an
> interest in
> > > a
> > > > > few of my characters that are
> being
> > > held
> > > > > > > > > captive by the Gods,
> but for
> > > > > the most part, I am much more
> > > interested
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > starting new
> characters. I
> > > > > have some thoughts on what to do
> > > with
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > characters out in the
> > > planes,
> > > > > but I'll save those for when we
> > > start
> > > > > > > > talking
> > > > > > > > > about it. Well, maybe
> I'll
> > > > > just throw something out there
> now
> > > so
> > > > > that
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > don't forget about it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No need to respond to
> this
> > > now,
> > > > > it can be covered later, I just
> > > wanted
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > say it before I forget
> it.
> > > Do
> > > > > you think that the Riders might
> > > invite
> > > > > > > > some,
> > > > > > > > > or all, of the people
> who
> > > > > participated in the Tiamat war
> to
> > > come
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > live
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > their new world? I
> don't
> > > think
> > > > > they would offer them any type
> of
> > > > > > power
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > anything, but since
> they did
> > > > > help the Riders in fighting
> Tiamat,
> > > > > > perhaps
> > > > > > > > > they might offer to let
> them
> > > > > live a free life on the new
> world
> > > > > instead
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > being stuck in
> servitude on
> > > > > some plane somewhere. Just a
> > > thought.
> > > > > It
> > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > help us to provide some
> > > already
> > > > > known people to populate the
> world
> > > > > > with.
> > > > > > > > > They wouldn't get
> anything,
> > > it
> > > > > would basically be a "Hey,
> Sorrell,
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > of lounging around out
> > > there in
> > > > > that plane, why don't you come
> and
> > > > > > live
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > our new world?" She
> agrees
> > > and
> > > > > gets plane shifted to the new
> world
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > is the end of the deal.
> > > She is
> > > > > on her own from there. Anyway,
> > > like I
> > > > > > > > said,
> > > > > > > > > we can pick it up later.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As for last night...Jim,
> > > > > awesome, awesome job!! I echo
> > > John's
> > > > > > > sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > I had a blast. I felt
> > > > > challenged through the fight,
> but
> > > not
> > > > > > > overwhelmed.
> > > > > > > > > It was dangerous, but
> not
> > > > > overly one-sided. If I had to
> pick
> > > a
> > > > > way
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Riders to "go out" that
> > > would
> > > > > be it. I enjoyed the story the
> > > whole
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > through and while there
> were
> > > > > times when I was like "What the
> > > hell is
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > doing to us?", it was
> never
> > > in
> > > > > a bad way, more of a "I didn't
> see
> > > THAT
> > > > > > > > > coming." kind of way.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So anyway, it was a lot
> of
> > > fun
> > > > > and you ended it perfectly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for a wonderful
> > > time!!!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message---
> --
> > > > > > > > > From: Johnathan Detrick
> > > > > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October
> 15,
> > > 2002
> > > > > 9:46 AM
> > > > > > > > > To: Riders II
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl]
> > > Tuesday
> > > > > morning review
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As I mentioned
> before, I
> > > > > thought last night was awesome!
> > > Jim did
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > great job, and the night
> > > was a
> > > > > blast. Let's recap.
> > > > > > > > > The adventure to
> rescue
> > > > > Karvas and Saurotte was nice
> and not
> > > > > > > > > contrived, yet it didn't
> > > take
> > > > > up too much of the night. I
> was a
> > > > > > little
> > > > > > > > > disappointed that we
> > > couldn't
> > > > > play that smaller group more
> > > because I
> > > > > > > > > enjoyed them, but it
> would
> > > have
> > > > > been sheer folly on Jim's part
> to
> > > drag
> > > > > > > > > that out. Instead he
> made
> > > it
> > > > > just the right length, and it
> was
> > > great.
> > > > > > > > > As he has throughout
> > > this
> > > > > adventure, Jim kept me guessing
> the
> > > > > > entire
> > > > > > > > > night. I was not aware
> that
> > > > > the battle with the Black Legion
> > > was the
> > > > > > > > > end of the adventure. I
> > > > > assumed there would be more
> beyond
> > > them.
> > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm thrilled
> > > that
> > > > > he made them the climax. If the
> > > Riders
> > > > > > > > > were going to end their
> > > careers
> > > > > as adventurers, what is more
> > > > > > appropriate
> > > > > > > > > than a final battle with
> > > their
> > > > > most hated foes? It was the
> perfect
> > > > > > > > > capper for them, and
> bravo
> > > to
> > > > > Jim for using it as the
> endpiece.
> > > > > > > > > I sensed that Jim
> felt
> > > he
> > > > > wasn't using the Black Legion to
> > > their
> > > > > > > > > full potential last
> night,
> > > or
> > > > > that they were too easy.
> > > Considering he
> > > > > > > > > killed five characters
> > > > > throughout the fight, I'm not
> sure
> > > why
> > > > > he felt
> > > > > > > > > that way. The Black
> Legion
> > > was
> > > > > doing incredibly well. Damon
> made
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > statement that they
> never
> > > > > attacked us en masse. Thank
> God!
> > > > > > Personally,
> > > > > > > > > I think Jim used them
> > > > > exceedingly well. By having
> them
> > > > > attack us in
> > > > > > > > > waves it kept the group
> off
> > > > > balance. It also should be
> noted
> > > that
> > > > > two
> > > > > > > > > or three of them at a
> time
> > > was
> > > > > more than sufficient to keep 11
> > > members
> > > > > > > > > of the Riders busy. It
> > > made it
> > > > > seem like Amrikol had a master
> plan,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > made him seem much more
> > > like a
> > > > > brilliant strategist than if he
> had
> > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > > his power and simply
> tried
> > > to
> > > > > pummel the Riders into paste.
> > > > > > > > > If Jim shot himself
> in
> > > the
> > > > > foot anywhere, it was in
> killing so
> > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > people in the
> adventures of
> > > the
> > > > > past few weeks. Because an
> average
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > two characters per week
> were
> > > > > dying on adventures, Faceous had
> > > taken
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > Resurrections at 7th
> level.
> > > > > This enabled him to continually
> > > > > replenish
> > > > > > > > > the ranks of the Riders
> from
> > > > > the dead characters. If he had
> not
> > > done
> > > > > > > > > that, the Riders would
> have
> > > > > been in a lot more trouble.
> They
> > > would
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > survived, I think, but
> it
> > > would
> > > > > have been by the skin of their
> > > teeth.
> > > > > > > > > Anyway, the fight
> was
> > > > > great. It moved quite quickly;
> for
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > that does not have as
> firm a
> > > > > grasp of the rules as he did in
> > > second
> > > > > > > > > edition, Jim kept things
> > > moving
> > > > > so smoothly. And considering
> that
> > > all
> > > > > > > > > of the players had more
> than
> > > > > one character, we moved quickly
> as
> > > well.
> > > > > > > > > There was a palpable
> sense
> > > of
> > > > > danger the entire time, and
> death
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > constantly present. I
> just
> > > > > can't say how much fun I
> thought it
> > > was.
> > > > > > > > > The was the perfect mix
> of
> > > > > danger and excitement. I didn't
> > > feel
> > > > > > > > > completely overwhelmed
> and I
> > > > > didn't feel like it was easy.
> It
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > great.
> > > > > > > > > One side note.
> Amrikol
> > > > > broke his Staff of Power in a
> > > > > retributive
> > > > > > > > > strike. I was
> surprised as
> > > > > hell, and said as much. I
> think Jim
> > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > > > I was fighting him on
> it. I
> > > > > was not. The villains are
> allowed
> > > to
> > > > > > > > > surprise me, and I am
> not
> > > privy
> > > > > to their thoughts. I was not
> trying
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > challenge Jim's ruling;
> I
> > > was
> > > > > just surprised. No doubt that
> was
> > > > > > > > > Amrikol's plan, as he
> > > probably
> > > > > assumed the Riders wouldn't
> think
> > > him
> > > > > > > > > capable of doing that.
> In
> > > that
> > > > > respect, it worked brilliantly.
> > > But I
> > > > > > > > > just wanted to make it
> > > clear I
> > > > > was not disagreeing with what
> Jim
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > doing; I was just
> amazed he
> > > did
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll start sending
> out
> > > e-
> > > > > mail on the new gods and their
> world
> > > > > > today
> > > > > > > > > and through the week
> (expect
> > > > > them to start this afternoon).
> Jim
> > > did
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > bang-up job, and here's
> a
> > > thank
> > > > > you from me!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- Binary/unsupported file
> > > stripped
> > > > > by Ecartis --
> > > > > > > -- Type: application/msword
> > > > > > > -- File: the list.doc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
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