[dungeoncrawl] Re: Tuesday Morning Review (comments)
- From: Damon Kline <damon.kline@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:28:49 -0400
I really can see people that have come along with Magnus so far, sort of
sticking it to him when it comes time to "take the role of Greater Power".
Then again, I'm sure Magnus has thought of this as well and is prepared for
it, but wouldn't that start the world off really interestingly? Gadget
attempts to rest the power from Magnus so that the arrogant elf doesn't have
the chance to shape the world. But, Magnus expected such an attempt and
took precautions, so Gadget fails. Now, Gadget still becomes a power. How
does this affect the "goings on" on the world? What if, after Gadget's
failure, Shelensia steps in and takes the power? Now, how does that change
things?
Don't get me wrong Jim, I think you've done a great job so far and the
outcome isn't totally predetermined, but it's more a matter of determining
the hierarchy in our divine food chain. We all know that we will have a
place, we just don't know how high or low we are going to be.
But, I also see your point about being the "creator" of the world. Whoever
gets the main power, will have the ability to shape the world. That is very
interesting. What if Magnus creates the world and makes elves the dominant
race, while making drow almost non-existent or worse, sub-servants to the
elves!! How will Quasit and Shelensia react? Could be interesting.
-----Original Message-----
From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:11 AM
To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Tuesday Morning Review (comments)
Maybe it is a catch-22, and maybe it
isn't, buddy! :) I have one more acorn
of wisdom to share with my fellow
chipmunks on the oak tree of life.
Sure, the characters all "Qualify" to
become gods. But, one detail I didn't
mention, and failed to specify - the
one thing that I will insist we abide
by when the time comes - is that nature
of the world we create will entirely
depend on who actually creates it.
What was that I just said? Ok, let me
try again. Let's say that Quasit ends
up being the one who gets things
rolling. Ultimately, he'd decide such
things as at what point the world
begins (protozoa or advanced
renaissance) or how structured/chaotic
society is. This person would
determine if humans dominate, or elves,
or if the forces of evil are mighty and
threatening the rest of the world.
Only then would the pantheon be
defined. So if someone like Amrikol
decides things, the new gods will find
themselves called upon by worshippers
in a harsh, unforgiving world. If
Ambrosia (yeah right) set things up, it
would be kumbayaa and everything goes.
If Baish set it up, everyone but him
would be a babe.
So there is something to fight for -
and maybe more than you realize. In
this unique case, and if you think your
characters would, it's perfectly
acceptable for them to ACTIVELY
influence the course of events. If
this means that Gadget needs to
backstab Magnus because he doesn't want
his vision to prevail, then so be it.
That's what I'm really hoping to see.
I'm not expecting the moon and stars,
but some real sweating bullets on the
part of the characters would make me
feel that all this work was worth it.
> Okay, I have a quick minute to jump
in here. It took me until now to read
> through all of the emails from
Thursday through today, so I'm going to
> include thoughts from different
conversations into this one email. :)
>
> Let's see:
>
> I have been enjoying Jim's plot very
much. More so than John has been and
> it makes sense based on what Jim and
John both said. I have not been
> getting anxious about what is going
to happen to these guys. Even though we
> are ending the longest campaign we
have ever played. (Even longer for
John,
> Keith and Jim.)
>
> I have greatly enjoyed listening to
the story that Jim has been unfolding
> and thinking about the awesome things
that the characters have either
> witnessed or participated in. I
didn't really think about Penny and
Brain
> on Gadget's world, I mostly thought
about the Gods running rampant and the
> "creatures" that we fought. So, that
part has been great!!!
>
> However, having said that and
relating to something else that Jim
mentioned,
> I almost feel like it doesn't really
matter what we do with this. As Jim
> said, our characters are going to
become Gods, one way or another. It is
> pre-determined, apparently, so it's
almost like we're just putting our
> characters through the paces just to
get to the end. We could almost not
> even try and still get to become
Gods. As Jim said, we are going to have
> fun putting a pantheon together and
that will be very cool, but to me, it
> somewhat takes away from the journey
to get there because we already know
> that we are going to get there. Even
if characters die, they can still
> become Gods. So where is the
challenge?
>
> From my point of view, Jim is telling
a tremendous story that is awesome.
> No question. But, because he (and
we) already know that the characters are
> going to become Gods, he is more
telling a story for the
characters/players
> to hear, rather than weaving an
adventure for the characters to
participate
> in and influence. Does this make
sense?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I am having a
good time playing these guys and the
> interaction between the PC's is
great, but there isn't an overriding
sense
> of danger, simply because we know
that we will succeed in one form or
> another.
>
> So, it's a catch 22 really. If Jim
had proceeded with the plot and let us
> think that there was a very real
chance that we might not become Gods,
then
> it gives it more of a "danger" level
and a sense of urgency. It also causes
> John to get ulcers worrying about how
this campaign is going to end and
> thus, he does not enjoy it as much.
>
> By the same token, with Jim telling
us that "if you have a character
> involved in this, they will become a
God unless you say otherwise", we
> already know that their destiny is
pre-determined. It's like going to a
job
> interview after you've been hired for
the job. You just have to show up and
> act normal and you are set.
>
> Okay, this email got way too long.
I'll talk about my characters and their
> becoming or not becoming Gods in
another email, if I have time.
>
> Suffice it to say that I am having a
very good time with this and the story
> is awesome.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnathan Detrick
[mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002
2:36 PM
> To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Tuesday
Morning Review (comments)
>
>
> I think that we have the right
idea. While we may need to cover
> some godly bases (like magic and
such), we can really make our pantheon
> different by focusing more on the
personalities. Quasit might be
> careful planning and forethought;
Gadget might be style; Talon might be
> greed. That sort of thing.
>
> jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Sort of like Ambrosia - not a
goddess
> > of lust and hedonism, but of
> > freedom/tolerance/beauty. Escrima
(if
> > she got drug into this) might
become a
> > goddess of isolation, loneliness,
and
> > fear (and patron of
shapeshifters). We
> > could have loads of fun with this.
> >
> > >
> > > I had already thought that
> > perhaps Magnus should not be a magic
> > god,
> > > but a god of ambition, power and
> > chaos. That sort of thing. I'm
being
> > > called to a meeting; I'll be back
> > with more afterward.
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > Good - I'm glad to hear it. I
have
> > to
> > > > remind myself to have fun also -
for
> > > > everyone's benefit, sort of see
the
> > > > next session or two as a
departure
> > from
> > > > the norm.
> > > >
> > > > There might be (and might not
be)
> > > > plenty of carnage, but that
comes
> > from
> > > > the freedom of knowing that
we're
> > going
> > > > to have fun putting a pantheon
> > together
> > > > in another few weeks that
involves
> > the
> > > > same characters.
> > > >
> > > > For that purpose, I really do
need
> > to
> > > > tell you/admit two things:
> > > >
> > > > 1. If anyone has a character
that
> > is
> > > > involved with current events
(even
> > if
> > > > they're just hanging around
Sigil)
> > and
> > > > you as a player do NOT want
them to
> > > > become a power, don't use them
next
> > > > time on the mission. Anything
goes
> > > > from the time they leave the
city
> > on.
> > > >
> > > > 2. If you have specific ideas
about
> > > > what type of power you would
like to
> > > > see your character become, also
let
> > me
> > > > know! For example, although
Dennis
> > > > doesn't have any aspirations
towards
> > > > godhood, I have a feeling it's
in
> > his
> > > > future.
> > > >
> > > > To that end, I can already say
that
> > > > he'd of course make a good
patron of
> > > > bards and god of music and
> > literature,
> > > > but also that he'd be a god with
> > some
> > > > sort of pantheonic reference to
> > > > trust/fidelity/loyalty
somehow. It
> > > > would be great to see the
> > characters'
> > > > personality traits mainifest as
> > > > domains, such as giving Magnus
> > domain
> > > > over ambition in addition to
other
> > > > things (even if he doesn't want
to
> > be).
> > > >
> > > > Maybe if we all start thinking
about
> > > > that process, we can put less
> > pressure
> > > > on the current game - that
stuff's
> > > > almost more fun anyway.
> > > >
> > > > So, in closing - what did you
all
> > think
> > > > about Gadget's world? I
thought it
> > > > rocked!
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure it helps. Actually,
I
> > would
> > > > have been quite happy had you
been
> > > > > able to stay and talk. I had
> > wanted
> > > > to speak with everyone (you
> > > > > included) to try and figure
out
> > why I
> > > > was not enjoying myself as I
> > > > > thought I should be.
> > Unfortunately,
> > > > you had to leave, and I had
plenty
> > > > > of time to stay. (Brad is
taking
> > > > real-estate classes for the
next few
> > > > > weeks, so he doesn't get home
> > Monday
> > > > nights until about 10:50pm. No
> > > > > reason to rush home.)
> > > > > Yes, I do feel better.
I'm
> > going
> > > > to try next week to just relax
and
> > > > > play as my characters would,
> > instead
> > > > of trying so hard to "win" the
> > > > > game. This does help.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I almost want to start off
by
> > > > > > saying "when you've been in
this
> > > > > > business as long as I
> > have..." :) I
> > > > > > knew when I left Monday
that you
> > > > guys
> > > > > > had some things to
talk/think
> > about,
> > > > > > and I was glad to give you
that
> > > > time.
> > > > > > I wouldn't have added
anything.
> > > > Just
> > > > > > the fact that John didn't
bolt
> > out
> > > > the
> > > > > > door at first opportunity
was a
> > good
> > > > > > sign that such was the
case. :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But seriously, maybe I can
help
> > to
> > > > make
> > > > > > this easier to come to terms
> > with.
> > > > The
> > > > > > first few times we played,
all
> > the
> > > > > > players ended with sort of a
> > high,
> > > > and
> > > > > > I'd go home totally stressed
> > about
> > > > what
> > > > > > I was attempting to do.
That's
> > why
> > > > we
> > > > > > had such serious, sometimes
> > > > > > argumentative conversations
for
> > a
> > > > few
> > > > > > weeks there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've had months to wrap my
mind
> > > > around
> > > > > > the enormity of what we're
> > trying to
> > > > > > transition through, and it
seems
> > > > like
> > > > > > you might be where I was
about
> > the
> > > > time
> > > > > > when Shawn visited. Then
again,
> > > > I've
> > > > > > always kept more
information to
> > > > myself,
> > > > > > giving me the "advance"
dose of
> > > > anxiety.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But - be of good cheer! I
> > think I
> > > > know
> > > > > > how to phrase this in a way
that
> > > > puts
> > > > > > everything in the proper
light.
> > > > Over
> > > > > > the past few weeks, as I've
> > > > cautioned
> > > > > > people on expectations and
the
> > > > > > possibility of defeat, my
sole
> > > > > > motivation came from a
desire
> > to do
> > > > > > things "right". I wanted
the
> > > > players
> > > > > > to feel that victory was
> > earned, and
> > > > > > not just handed to them.
And I
> > > > valued
> > > > > > what we've all committed to
> > these
> > > > > > characters and this
storyline
> > over
> > > > the
> > > > > > years - I want to end well.
> > Still,
> > > > I
> > > > > > may have gone too far to
protect
> > > > that
> > > > > > desire out of my own
anxiety.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's the bottom line:
> > whoever you
> > > > > > (meaning us, the group, and
> > Shawn)
> > > > want
> > > > > > to have become gods, can.
> > Whatever
> > > > > > pantheon or mythology you
want
> > to
> > > > > > establish, feel free. My
role
> > in
> > > > this
> > > > > > ends the instant the "Big
event"
> > > > takes
> > > > > > place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My biggest concern is that
> > everyone
> > > > > > leave their anxiety at the
door.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > not trying to pigeonhole
> > everyone
> > > > into
> > > > > > ruling a world populated by
> > > > chickens -
> > > > > > I just want to tell a
thrilling
> > > > story
> > > > > > (so try to sit back and
enjoy
> > the
> > > > ride).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I noticed Monday that
everyone
> > > > tended
> > > > > > to take things a bit too
> > seriously
> > > > > > (again, I've had a part to
play
> > in
> > > > > > that) - distance yourselves
> > from the
> > > > > > story for a second and just
> > think
> > > > about
> > > > > > all the cool, amazing things
> > that we
> > > > > > roleplayed through. Gadget
> > > > restoring
> > > > > > the world - Magnus and
Celane's
> > > > > > showdown - the deceased
> > characters'
> > > > > > difficult decisions when
> > confronted
> > > > by
> > > > > > Kelemvor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The next time we play, I
hope
> > to DM
> > > > a
> > > > > > VERY challenging
adventure. The
> > > > Riders
> > > > > > will face their greatest
> > obstacle in
> > > > > > attaining godhood, and may
even
> > > > have to
> > > > > > die on purpose to succeed.
If
> > > > anyone
> > > > > > has a weak stomach by then,
I
> > can
> > > > bring
> > > > > > some dramamine along - but
> > really,
> > > > > > we're not succeeding if
> > everyone is
> > > > too
> > > > > > uptight about the
significance
> > of
> > > > this
> > > > > > to not have fun...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did this discussion help
any?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ok, I finally have
caught
> > up
> > > > on
> > > > > > my work, and I thought I
would
> > > > respond
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > Jim's e-mail. My
feelings on
> > the
> > > > > > current plot? I'm honestly
not
> > > > sure.
> > > > > > I spent
> > > > > > > about 30 minutes talking
with
> > Matt
> > > > > > and Damon after Monday's
game
> > > > trying to
> > > > > > > figure out just what my
> > feelings
> > > > > > were. I'm not sure how
much of
> > a
> > > > > > conclusion I
> > > > > > > came to, and I wish Matt
and
> > Damon
> > > > > > had more time free to
respond
> > and
> > > > chat,
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > they could include their
> > feelings.
> > > > > > As it is, I'll try and
speak as
> > > > > > accurately
> > > > > > > as possible.
> > > > > > > Monday night didn't
gel
> > with
> > > > me,
> > > > > > and it's really weird. The
> > first
> > > > few
> > > > > > times
> > > > > > > we played this plot, with
the
> > > > Riders
> > > > > > going after the power, I was
> > > > psyched to
> > > > > > > high heaven. Jim did
such a
> > > > > > tremendous job, and I was
loving
> > > > every
> > > > > > minute of
> > > > > > > it. But the last few
sessions
> > > > have
> > > > > > been less exciting for me
and
> > I'm
> > > > not
> > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > why. I tend to think
it's a
> > > > > > combination of quite a few
> > things.
> > > > One
> > > > > > of them is
> > > > > > > a feeling of anxiety. We
are
> > > > > > bringing to an end the
> > adventures
> > > > of a
> > > > > > group of
> > > > > > > characters we have played
for
> > > > over a
> > > > > > decade (or at least,
bringing
> > their
> > > > > > mortal
> > > > > > > adventures to an end).
While
> > the
> > > > > > characters will continue as
> > NPCs and
> > > > > > potential
> > > > > > > background material, they
will
> > > > never
> > > > > > be played again. What we
are
> > doing
> > > > is a
> > > > > > > major thing, and I am
honestly
> > > > > > concerned about how it will
turn
> > > > out.
> > > > > > Jim has
> > > > > > > dropped countless hints
that
> > > > things
> > > > > > may not turn out the way we
want
> > > > them
> > > > > > to,
> > > > > > > and we should be prepared
for
> > > > > > anything, and as he dropped
> > more and
> > > > > > more, I
> > > > > > > became more and more
> > concerned.
> > > > How
> > > > > > is this going to end?
> > > > > > > Of course, there is
> > always an
> > > > > > element of uncertainty in
> > anything
> > > > we
> > > > > > do. But
> > > > > > > what Jim does now closes a
> > rather
> > > > > > large chapter in our
history.
> > Not
> > > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > what characters will be
> > affected
> > > > and
> > > > > > how they will be affected
> > bothers
> > > > me. I
> > > > > > > find that I'm not enjoying
> > myself,
> > > > > > but instead worrying about
the
> > > > outcome
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > every single encounter and
> > every
> > > > > > single decision. I'm
concerned
> > > > that we
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > make a wrong turn, and
> > catastrophe
> > > > > > will ensue.
> > > > > > > Personally, I'm just
> > ready for
> > > > > > the plot to be over, so I
can
> > > > breathe a
> > > > > > sigh
> > > > > > > of relief, and move on to
> > > > something
> > > > > > else. It's weird, because
I'd
> > like
> > > > to
> > > > > > move
> > > > > > > back to the Sigil or to
the
> > lower
> > > > > > level group of Riders where
I
> > play
> > > > > > Quincy and
> > > > > > > Ilana. Why? Because I
don't
> > > > care as
> > > > > > strongly what happens to
those
> > > > > > > characters. If they die,
if
> > the
> > > > DM
> > > > > > turns them into chickens, if
> > their
> > > > arms
> > > > > > fall
> > > > > > > off, no matter what
happens,
> > it's
> > > > not
> > > > > > nearly as important as my
> > feelings
> > > > about
> > > > > > > the current Riders.
> > > > > > > Does this make sense?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jim and Karen wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, what did you guys
think
> > of
> > > > last
> > > > > > night? To be honest, it
was my
> > > > favorite
> > > > > > > > night of this entire
story
> > > > line - I
> > > > > > loved developing Gadget's
> > supporting
> > > > > > > > cast, and enjoyed
seeing the
> > > > > > results of tons of
groundwork
> > come
> > > > to
> > > > > > light
> > > > > > > > (like introducing
Kolyarut-
> > 13
> > > > > > several months ago, and
having
> > Dr.
> > > > Klaw
> > > > > > defend
> > > > > > > > himself by taking
advantage
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > Riders' problems with the
gods).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I also loved giving
Gadget a
> > > > chance
> > > > > > to take on his arch-enemy
mano-
> > a-
> > > > mano,
> > > > > > > > and he did great. I
still
> > can't
> > > > > > believe how well he kicked
> > Klaw's
> > > > butt!
> > > > > > > > The neat thing was, they
> > fought
> > > > in
> > > > > > a virtual world, where
Klaw's
> > > > > > > > artifact-granted godly
> > powers
> > > > were
> > > > > > worthless. Gadget had a
neat
> > moment
> > > > > > > > where he disrupted a
> > > > transmission
> > > > > > from the mechanical
Kolyarut-13
> > to
> > > > Klaw
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > disrupting the stream of
> > 1's and
> > > > > > 0's with his hand.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All of the players did a
> > great
> > > > job
> > > > > > with their characters - they
> > seemed
> > > > real
> > > > > > > > to me. And John, I
hope you
> > > > didn't
> > > > > > worry about my problems
DMing
> > > > > > > > spellcasters (I know we
> > joked
> > > > about
> > > > > > it a lot), but I was fine.
> > Everyone
> > > > > > > > really put their all
into
> > it,
> > > > and
> > > > > > it resulted in a great game.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Still, I had a hunch
that
> > people
> > > > > > weren't really totally
enjoying
> > > > > > themselves,
> > > > > > > > but I couldn't figure
out
> > why.
> > > > > > Matt, seemed a bit bored
with
> > his
> > > > > > > > characters; John and
Damon
> > both
> > > > > > seemed like they had a lot
on
> > their
> > > > > > minds.
> > > > > > > > Was it just a stressful
day
> > for
> > > > > > everyone, or did my buddies
> > have a
> > > > > > common
> > > > > > > > concern regarding the
plot
> > or
> > > > game?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Felt it was worth
asking -
> > not a
> > > > > > major deal, but better than
> > leaving
> > > > it
> > > > > > go
> > > > > > > > unremedied. Ok, enough
> > babble
> > > > from
> > > > > > me! :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
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