[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
- From: Johnathan Detrick <jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:47:16 -0400
I think we could make Gadget a kick-ass sorcerer. At 15th level he would
have access to some really neat spells.
Or, if Jim will allow it, we could make Gadget a 15th level rogue, and
consider his gadgets to be magic items. That would limit the amount of Gadgets
he could have, but it would also give him a lot of style.
Matt McKeehan wrote:
> I agree with you, each of those characters have two classes, maybe one class
> will do them and me good.
>
> Matt Mckeehan
> DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> Admin Office of The PA Courts
> PA Supreme Court
> (717)795-2063
> (717)514-9446 mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:09 PM
> To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
>
> There is something to the fact that we were somewhat on the sidelines
> last
> night, I'll grant you that.
> As for your characters, I'll be honest. One of the biggest mistakes you
> have made with them is to give them too many classes! Sonya, Carpathia,
> Gadget...all of them have two or three classes. You need to focus them.
> They
> are too scattered, and it weakens them. If it is ok with Jim, I'd be more
> than
> willing to help you whittle them down into one class each (or two at the
> most)
> and try and give them some direction. I know that you feel they lack items,
> but
> that's not the biggest thing. Items help, but they aren't everything.
> Baish
> and Quasit are both almost itemless, and Magnus and Nadan never used any
> items
> at all last night. Wait, Magnus did. Once. Point being, your characters
> need
> to be restructured.
>
> Matt McKeehan wrote:
>
> > I think what bummed me out the most from last night was the fact that our
> > group " that should be the center focus" was on the side lines most of the
> > night. I believe that, the adventure should focus on our group of
> > characters. Last night felt like our group was watching what was going
> on.
> > The other thing I'm going to work on is adjusting what my characters can
> do.
> > Carpathia is useless in battle with everything we've been up against, he
> is
> > 12th level but he might as well be 7th. His weapons suck, his spells are
> > worthless, this is all my fault, but for the little amount of time we play
> I
> > want my characters to count. He doesn't, even Gaget is not worth my time.
> > (again this is me, picking lousy spells). You all have characters with a
> > lot of time and they've gained many items and ways of doing things. For me
> > with the little time I've had, I have not been able to transition myself
> to
> > adapting my characters to each situation. I just venting ... sorry. I
> just
> > want my time playing D&D to matter more....
> >
> > Matt Mckeehan
> > DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> > Admin Office of The PA Courts
> > PA Supreme Court
> > (717)795-2063
> > (717)514-9446 mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:35 PM
> > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
> >
> > I can understand why Elminster did what he did, but it points out a
> > curious double standard that all DMs have in regard to the reactions and
> > attitudes of PCs versus NPCs. Tell me if you agree.
> > As players, our characters are constantly put up against NPCs that
> > are both more powerful and less powerful than them, and many of them
> > have an attitude. From the local innkeeper that doesn't like their
> > looks to the hedge-wizard Elminster, the characters are beset by people
> > with a grudge on a constant basis. We have to deal with them and move
> > on, and more likely than not, we have to be nice to them. NPCs, on the
> > other hand, can be the biggest jerks in the world, and the characters,
> > if they act against them, are always in the wrong. Not clear? Then let
> > me ask you this. If a good character from our group had been verbally
> > abused by another good character, and as punishment, had teleported the
> > good character and their companions (some of whom were also good and
> > near death) into Hell alongside some demons and their most hated
> > enemies, would the DM consider that an evil act? I think so. Am I
> > saying that Jim was wrong or Elminster was out of character? No. I
> > don't know that any of us really know Elminster's character, and the
> > reaction he had makes sense. But does anyone see the double standard I
> > speak of? I'm guilty of it as a DM, and I believe all the DMs I have
> > ever dealt with are as well.
> > On to the matter of power levels. First of all, I feel you do Baish
> > a disservice to not include him with Nadan and Magnus. He is capable of
> > tremendous power (remember the 68 points of damage he did in one round,
> > with only two hits?), and also is likely to involve the group in a
> > confrontation. And again, we have discussed the disparate power levels
> > in groups for years and years. You most certainly do not have to drop a
> > mountain on Magnus and Nadan to stop them. As I mentioned, Nadan was
> > near death many times, and even Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> > one time (which is a big deal for him). I mentioned this when Magnus
> > was adventuring with the lower-level group, but I'll say it again. Stop
> > trying to stop certain characters. Instead, do what you have been
> > doing; create good stories with strong villains. If you do that, I'll
> > be challenged as a player, and my characters are challenged as well.
> > Once Nadan has to start healing people, he becomes little more than a
> > walking band-aid, so his effectiveness is reduced. And Magnus doesn't
> > want any of his comrades to die, so he'll be looking for ways to save
> > him. Every death of a Rider is a blow to Magnus.
> > You need to have more faith in yourself as a DM. Do we grumble from
> > time to time? Hell yeah! It's a player's prerogative! I was sick and
> > tired last night, so I was grumpy anyway, and I already expressed my
> > frustration at not being able to pair the Riders against the Black
> > Legion in a WWE style brawl. Not frustration at your plot, but
> > frustration that things weren't going as I hoped. We all trust you, and
> > your plot has heretofore been brilliant. Don't get caught up on the
> > individual characters. Did my characters seem to over power last
> > night? Of course they did! Matt's character was killed immediately, as
> > was Damon's subtle character. The NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> > characters had to step up. But what dominates the game is never power,
> > but always personality. If the other characters have a strength of
> > personality, they will shine through just as clearly. I think Baish did
> > last night, and if Carpathia hadn't been dead, I believe he would have
> > as well. I look forward to seeing Gadget next week.
> > Whew! Does any of this make sense?
> >
> > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe I can clarify where I was coming
> > > from, and simultaneously explain where
> > > my concerns lie. Nadan's attitude
> > > isn't necessarily "bad", but it is
> > > definitely a part of his personality.
> > > In the past two weeks, he's provoked
> > > two powerful NPCs who could have been
> > > dealt with a different way, and in both
> > > cases, it resulted in problems.
> > >
> > > With Elminster, he offended the old
> > > coot by insisting that he was in the
> > > wrong. Elminster's point of view was
> > > that the gods from the dead world Must
> > > be contained at all costs. He also
> > > felt that renegade Riders who had
> > > flaunted the god's will already
> > > (including Nadan) couldn't be anything
> > > BUT trouble. So when Nadan unloaded on
> > > him, he did the most logical thing:
> > > put all of the problems together in one
> > > place and let fate sort it out. The
> > > fact that Nadan felt he could give
> > > Elminster such grief and then expect
> > > his aid demonstrates the attitude I'm
> > > talking about.
> > >
> > > The second time was with Ariakas.
> > > Mentioning that Talos was dead didn't
> > > do much, but saying that he was "easy
> > > to beat" went beyond the pale as far as
> > > Ariakas would be concerned. The
> > > attitude I mention comes from my own
> > > surprise that Nadan would antagonize a
> > > chaotic evil priest with seriously
> > > wounded companions alongside him.
> > >
> > > That confrontation sparked the debate
> > > between Magnus and Amrikol; Amrikol
> > > felt he didn't really need the riders,
> > > and Magnus's insinuation that he didn't
> > > have control offended him. Combat was
> > > inevitable at that point.
> > >
> > > Not to say that either character was
> > > out of line; my own characters
> > > antagonize and offend people all the
> > > time. And some of them even are more
> > > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> > >
> > > But my concern comes from the fact that
> > > you have the two most powerful
> > > characters in the group, and they're
> > > easily the most likely to start a
> > > confrontation. Much like Ceranno,
> > > their values or goals take them much
> > > further than their comrades are ready
> > > for.
> > >
> > > On another note, I have to admit
> > > something about last night. The reason
> > > why the big showdown between the Riders
> > > and the Legion didn't really happen is
> > > because I saw how discouraged the
> > > players were all getting. I was even
> > > beginning to hear comments about how
> > > unlikely it would be that Elminster
> > > would set them up like that, etc.
> > >
> > > Instead of waiting a few more rounds to
> > > introduce the old Amrikol, I sped
> > > things up. I was like, "they don't get
> > > it - I've made this too convoluted.
> > > They don't understand that Nadan put
> > > them in this mess, or that Elminster
> > > takes the fact that they flaunted the
> > > gods very seriously."
> > >
> > > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > > bewildered at this point - I have to
> > > dump a mountain on the party to handle
> > > certain characters, and others are very
> > > vulnerable to such challenges.
> > >
> > > > I can understand your sentiments
> > > on Nadan. But I'm surprised to
> > > > hear you say he has a bad attitude.
> > > I don't see it as bad. I see it as
> > > > him standing up for what he believes
> > > in. I think if he had stayed quiet
> > > > and not confronted Ariakas, it would
> > > have been a cop-out. Same with
> > > > confronting Elminster, Mileena and
> > > Magnus. In my eyes, he's actually
> > > > acting his alignment.
> > > > I'm quite enjoying the idea that
> > > Nadan is very powerful. He knows
> > > > that he has a lot of strength and he
> > > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > > principles. For so many years Magnus
> > > has lorded things over the Riders,
> > > > in part due to the fact that he could
> > > wipe the floor with most of them.
> > > > Now he has to face someone with as
> > > much power as he has, and the
> > > > strength to stand up to him. I love
> > > the battle of wills between the two
> > > > of them and just wish they both
> > > weren't my character. :)
> > > > Don't worry about Nadan dying,
> > > especially if it comes about because
> > > > he stands up for his beliefs. He
> > > wasn't intentionally antagonizing
> > > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of Talos,
> > > whose pretty opposed to everything
> > > > Lathander stands for. If Ariakas had
> > > killed him, so be it. Not a
> > > > problem on my end.
> > > > But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > > intimidate you. I think, that out of
> > > all
> > > > of us, high level characters cause
> > > you more concern than any other DM.
> > > > Nadan is not invulnerable. He takes
> > > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > > and can be hurt. He has no real
> > > protections, and his hit points, while
> > > > high, are not astronomical. When
> > > hit, does he not bleed? :) Trust me,
> > > > he was close to death quite a bit
> > > last night.
> > > > I do have an apology to make to
> > > you though. I had Nadan cast
> > > > spontaneous healing last night, as
> > > clerics can do. I thought he could
> > > > also swap out Heal and Mass Heal
> > > spells as well. Damon mentioned last
> > > > night, when we looked up the rules to
> > > see if he could spontaneously cast
> > > > Resurrection, that the rules say only
> > > spells with Cure in the title. I
> > > > checked it out last night, and Damon
> > > was right. So Nadan should not
> > > > have been able to cast as many Mass
> > > Heal spells as he did last night.
> > > > That should make you feel somewhat
> > > better. He takes one and that's it.
> > > >
> > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > You're right on target! And your
> > > > > summary captures where things stand
> > > > > really well. OK, so here's the
> > > deal:
> > > > >
> > > > > The group needs to track down Celane
> > > > > and Dr. Klaw. Apparently, Celane
> > > hates
> > > > > the Riders because one of them
> > > crippled
> > > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > > resentment
> > > > > is so strong that she's trying to
> > > keep
> > > > > godhood out of their hands. Dr.
> > > Klaw
> > > > > supposedly wants to "liberate" his
> > > > > world from "merchant kings", and
> > > seems
> > > > > to have been in control of the
> > > artifact
> > > > > from the start (since he's such a
> > > bad
> > > > > guy).
> > > > >
> > > > > The gods are important because the
> > > (now
> > > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted to use
> > > them
> > > > > to weaken Dendar enough for him to
> > > have
> > > > > a chance of gaining power (kind of
> > > like
> > > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > > Beyonder
> > > > > for you comics readers). He seems
> > > to
> > > > > have lost interest in this pursuit
> > > as a
> > > > > result of talking to Gargauth, a
> > > > > banished realms power who traded
> > > > > membership in the nine with freedom
> > > > > from hell (since the nine have that
> > > > > authority).
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm really happy with how things are
> > > > > going, and eager to see this
> > > conclude.
> > > > > As a DM, I'm facing two challenges:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Nadan - nothing against the
> > > > > character or how he's played, but
> > > he's
> > > > > a combination of bad attitude and
> > > > > tremendous power. Individuals who
> > > > > might not go berzerk to kill him
> > > > > normally (like Ariakas) find that
> > > goal
> > > > > to be a necessity when he taunts
> > > them.
> > > > > Ironically, he's becoming the
> > > Ceranno
> > > > > of the group.:).
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a problem for me on only one
> > > > > level - I'm worried that if he dies
> > > as
> > > > > a result of a situation like this,
> > > it
> > > > > might seem like I'm gunning for the
> > > > > character. I hope it's understood
> > > by
> > > > > everyone that if Nadan picks a fight
> > > > > with a big guy and dies, it's really
> > > > > not my preference!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Convolution - I'm worried that
> > > the
> > > > > plot is becoming so complex that
> > > people
> > > > > need a score card. I really, really
> > > > > hope to contain that next week.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, I see this wrapping up in the
> > > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ok, first with a summary, then
> > > > > with thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Riders had just come from
> > > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > > and had harangued Elminster into
> > > > > transporting them back to Sigil. He
> > > > > > agreed, but when they passed
> > > through
> > > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast, they
> > > > > > found themselves in Hell, facing
> > > the
> > > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > > conversing with some devils.
> > > > > > The two groups briefly spoke,
> > > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > > indication
> > > > > > of his plans, when suddenly the
> > > Black
> > > > > Legion attacked. Already wounded
> > > > > > from their battle in the castle
> > > back
> > > > > on Faerun, Quasit and Carpathia
> > > > > > were quickly killed. Magnus
> > > wanted
> > > > > to retreat, but the Riders became
> > > > > > separated, and he was unwilling to
> > > > > leave anyone behind. Mileena used
> > > > > > her necromantic skills to bring
> > > > > Carpathia back as an undead, and the
> > > > > > Riders fought valiantly against
> > > the
> > > > > Black Legion.
> > > > > > The battle was going poorly
> > > when
> > > > > suddenly another Amrikol appeared,
> > > > > > this one looking more like the
> > > > > Amrikol the Riders had faced in
> > > their
> > > > > > early days. He declared the other
> > > > > Amrikol an impostor, and spat on the
> > > > > > Black Legion (except for Talon)
> > > who
> > > > > he felt had betrayed him by working
> > > > > > for the doppleganger. The Amrikol
> > > > > that had been leading the Black
> > > > > > Legion recently tore off his
> > > helmet,
> > > > > revealing elvish features that bore
> > > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > > Magnus. He
> > > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders tried to
> > > stay
> > > > > out of the way. Eventually they
> > > > > > joined the fight against the elven
> > > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally slew him
> > > > > > with a Meteor Swarm. However, as
> > > > > soon as he died, he was reborn as
> > > one
> > > > > > of the Nine, the arch-fiends that
> > > > > rule Hell. Apparently he had made a
> > > > > > deal with a banished Realms power,
> > > > > although the specifics of the deal
> > > > > > are unknown.
> > > > > > Faced with the power of this
> > > new
> > > > > form, the Riders, the original
> > > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled through a
> > > > > portal to Sigil. Once there they
> > > went
> > > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and parted ways
> > > > > with Amrikol and Talon. They
> > > rested,
> > > > > > then resurrected their fallen
> > > > > comrades. Unsure of what to do,
> > > they
> > > > > > began to research. Magnus sent
> > > some
> > > > > of the group to research how they
> > > > > > might gain the power they have
> > > been
> > > > > chasing, while he went to free a
> > > > > > devil in exchange for information
> > > on
> > > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > > Amrikol. He also recruited
> > > Gadget to
> > > > > their team, as it seems that they
> > > > > > will be dealing with Klaw, his old
> > > > > enemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So where does that leave them?
> > > > > Let me recap.
> > > > > > Dennis says that Klaw will
> > > have
> > > > > joined up with Celane and the
> > > > > > deities, and is heading to his
> > > home
> > > > > planet. Supposedly, Celane called
> > > > > > the remnants of the deities to her
> > > > > thanks to an artifact, the claw of
> > > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > > However,
> > > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > > compunctions can use the claw of
> > > > > Dendar to it's full potential, and
> > > so
> > > > > > Celane will easily lose control of
> > > > > the deities to Klaw. Klaw will then
> > > > > > use the power he possesses to "set
> > > > > right" things in his world. The
> > > > > > Riders are going to journey there
> > > to
> > > > > make sure Klaw does nothing drastic
> > > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > > > Meanwhile, there is still the
> > > > > problem of gaining the power of the
> > > > > > gods. According to what the
> > > Riders
> > > > > have learned, the elvish Amrikol is
> > > > > > now out of the race. Their devil
> > > > > ally told them that one of the Nine
> > > > > > would have no time or interest in
> > > > > focusing their attention on one
> > > measly
> > > > > > little prime world when they can
> > > > > affect all realities everywhere by
> > > > > > taking part in the Blood War. He
> > > > > should no longer be involved.
> > > > > > However, the original Amrikol
> > > is
> > > > > now interested in the power. And
> > > > > > the Riders aren't sure how to get
> > > > > it. It seems that they need to
> > > > > > destroy Dendar the Night Serpent
> > > to
> > > > > gain the power, but Dendar killed
> > > > > > all the deities of that Realm, so
> > > > > destroying him is no easy task. The
> > > > > > Riders are looking into ways to do
> > > > > that now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's it for me. I'd be
> > > > > thrilled if someone would comment
> > > on my
> > > > > > conclusions and tell me if they
> > > are
> > > > > correct.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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