[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
- From: Matt McKeehan <matt.mckeehan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:45:59 -0400
:) Thanks JIM
Matt Mckeehan
DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
Admin Office of The PA Courts
PA Supreme Court
(717)795-2063
(717)514-9446 mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:16 AM
To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
What say ye, Matt - would you want to
revamp your characters? I didn't
mention it last night, but I did the
same thing to Dennis since he was last
seen - he's a bard from one of Shawn's
books now. Don't let dopey rules hold
you back - run free and frolic in your
creativity! :)
>
> There is something to the fact
that we were somewhat on the sidelines
last
> night, I'll grant you that.
> As for your characters, I'll be
honest. One of the biggest mistakes you
> have made with them is to give them
too many classes! Sonya, Carpathia,
> Gadget...all of them have two or
three classes. You need to focus
them. They
> are too scattered, and it weakens
them. If it is ok with Jim, I'd be
more than
> willing to help you whittle them down
into one class each (or two at the most)
> and try and give them some
direction. I know that you feel they
lack items, but
> that's not the biggest thing. Items
help, but they aren't everything. Baish
> and Quasit are both almost itemless,
and Magnus and Nadan never used any
items
> at all last night. Wait, Magnus
did. Once. Point being, your
characters need
> to be restructured.
>
> Matt McKeehan wrote:
>
> > I think what bummed me out the most
from last night was the fact that our
> > group " that should be the center
focus" was on the side lines most of the
> > night. I believe that, the
adventure should focus on our group of
> > characters. Last night felt like
our group was watching what was going
on.
> > The other thing I'm going to work
on is adjusting what my characters can
do.
> > Carpathia is useless in battle
with everything we've been up against,
he is
> > 12th level but he might as well be
7th. His weapons suck, his spells are
> > worthless, this is all my fault,
but for the little amount of time we
play I
> > want my characters to count. He
doesn't, even Gaget is not worth my
time.
> > (again this is me, picking lousy
spells). You all have characters with a
> > lot of time and they've gained many
items and ways of doing things. For me
> > with the little time I've had, I
have not been able to transition myself
to
> > adapting my characters to each
situation. I just venting ... sorry.
I just
> > want my time playing D&D to matter
more....
> >
> > Matt Mckeehan
> > DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> > Admin Office of The PA Courts
> > PA Supreme Court
> > (717)795-2063
> > (717)514-9446 mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Johnathan Detrick
[mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002
1:35 PM
> > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re:
Thursday morning summary
> >
> > I can understand why Elminster
did what he did, but it points out a
> > curious double standard that all
DMs have in regard to the reactions and
> > attitudes of PCs versus NPCs. Tell
me if you agree.
> > As players, our characters are
constantly put up against NPCs that
> > are both more powerful and less
powerful than them, and many of them
> > have an attitude. From the local
innkeeper that doesn't like their
> > looks to the hedge-wizard
Elminster, the characters are beset by
people
> > with a grudge on a constant basis.
We have to deal with them and move
> > on, and more likely than not, we
have to be nice to them. NPCs, on the
> > other hand, can be the biggest
jerks in the world, and the characters,
> > if they act against them, are
always in the wrong. Not clear? Then
let
> > me ask you this. If a good
character from our group had been
verbally
> > abused by another good character,
and as punishment, had teleported the
> > good character and their companions
(some of whom were also good and
> > near death) into Hell alongside
some demons and their most hated
> > enemies, would the DM consider that
an evil act? I think so. Am I
> > saying that Jim was wrong or
Elminster was out of character? No. I
> > don't know that any of us really
know Elminster's character, and the
> > reaction he had makes sense. But
does anyone see the double standard I
> > speak of? I'm guilty of it as a
DM, and I believe all the DMs I have
> > ever dealt with are as well.
> > On to the matter of power
levels. First of all, I feel you do
Baish
> > a disservice to not include him
with Nadan and Magnus. He is capable of
> > tremendous power (remember the 68
points of damage he did in one round,
> > with only two hits?), and also is
likely to involve the group in a
> > confrontation. And again, we have
discussed the disparate power levels
> > in groups for years and years. You
most certainly do not have to drop a
> > mountain on Magnus and Nadan to
stop them. As I mentioned, Nadan was
> > near death many times, and even
Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> > one time (which is a big deal for
him). I mentioned this when Magnus
> > was adventuring with the lower-
level group, but I'll say it again.
Stop
> > trying to stop certain characters.
Instead, do what you have been
> > doing; create good stories with
strong villains. If you do that, I'll
> > be challenged as a player, and my
characters are challenged as well.
> > Once Nadan has to start healing
people, he becomes little more than a
> > walking band-aid, so his
effectiveness is reduced. And Magnus
doesn't
> > want any of his comrades to die, so
he'll be looking for ways to save
> > him. Every death of a Rider is a
blow to Magnus.
> > You need to have more faith in
yourself as a DM. Do we grumble from
> > time to time? Hell yeah! It's a
player's prerogative! I was sick and
> > tired last night, so I was grumpy
anyway, and I already expressed my
> > frustration at not being able to
pair the Riders against the Black
> > Legion in a WWE style brawl. Not
frustration at your plot, but
> > frustration that things weren't
going as I hoped. We all trust you, and
> > your plot has heretofore been
brilliant. Don't get caught up on the
> > individual characters. Did my
characters seem to over power last
> > night? Of course they did! Matt's
character was killed immediately, as
> > was Damon's subtle character. The
NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> > characters had to step up. But
what dominates the game is never power,
> > but always personality. If the
other characters have a strength of
> > personality, they will shine
through just as clearly. I think Baish
did
> > last night, and if Carpathia hadn't
been dead, I believe he would have
> > as well. I look forward to seeing
Gadget next week.
> > Whew! Does any of this make
sense?
> >
> > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe I can clarify where I was
coming
> > > from, and simultaneously explain
where
> > > my concerns lie. Nadan's attitude
> > > isn't necessarily "bad", but it is
> > > definitely a part of his
personality.
> > > In the past two weeks, he's
provoked
> > > two powerful NPCs who could have
been
> > > dealt with a different way, and
in both
> > > cases, it resulted in problems.
> > >
> > > With Elminster, he offended the
old
> > > coot by insisting that he was in
the
> > > wrong. Elminster's point of view
was
> > > that the gods from the dead world
Must
> > > be contained at all costs. He
also
> > > felt that renegade Riders who had
> > > flaunted the god's will already
> > > (including Nadan) couldn't be
anything
> > > BUT trouble. So when Nadan
unloaded on
> > > him, he did the most logical
thing:
> > > put all of the problems together
in one
> > > place and let fate sort it out.
The
> > > fact that Nadan felt he could give
> > > Elminster such grief and then
expect
> > > his aid demonstrates the attitude
I'm
> > > talking about.
> > >
> > > The second time was with Ariakas.
> > > Mentioning that Talos was dead
didn't
> > > do much, but saying that he
was "easy
> > > to beat" went beyond the pale as
far as
> > > Ariakas would be concerned. The
> > > attitude I mention comes from my
own
> > > surprise that Nadan would
antagonize a
> > > chaotic evil priest with seriously
> > > wounded companions alongside him.
> > >
> > > That confrontation sparked the
debate
> > > between Magnus and Amrikol;
Amrikol
> > > felt he didn't really need the
riders,
> > > and Magnus's insinuation that he
didn't
> > > have control offended him.
Combat was
> > > inevitable at that point.
> > >
> > > Not to say that either character
was
> > > out of line; my own characters
> > > antagonize and offend people all
the
> > > time. And some of them even are
more
> > > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> > >
> > > But my concern comes from the
fact that
> > > you have the two most powerful
> > > characters in the group, and
they're
> > > easily the most likely to start a
> > > confrontation. Much like Ceranno,
> > > their values or goals take them
much
> > > further than their comrades are
ready
> > > for.
> > >
> > > On another note, I have to admit
> > > something about last night. The
reason
> > > why the big showdown between the
Riders
> > > and the Legion didn't really
happen is
> > > because I saw how discouraged the
> > > players were all getting. I was
even
> > > beginning to hear comments about
how
> > > unlikely it would be that
Elminster
> > > would set them up like that, etc.
> > >
> > > Instead of waiting a few more
rounds to
> > > introduce the old Amrikol, I sped
> > > things up. I was like, "they
don't get
> > > it - I've made this too
convoluted.
> > > They don't understand that Nadan
put
> > > them in this mess, or that
Elminster
> > > takes the fact that they flaunted
the
> > > gods very seriously."
> > >
> > > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > > bewildered at this point - I have
to
> > > dump a mountain on the party to
handle
> > > certain characters, and others
are very
> > > vulnerable to such challenges.
> > >
> > > > I can understand your
sentiments
> > > on Nadan. But I'm surprised to
> > > > hear you say he has a bad
attitude.
> > > I don't see it as bad. I see it
as
> > > > him standing up for what he
believes
> > > in. I think if he had stayed
quiet
> > > > and not confronted Ariakas, it
would
> > > have been a cop-out. Same with
> > > > confronting Elminster, Mileena
and
> > > Magnus. In my eyes, he's actually
> > > > acting his alignment.
> > > > I'm quite enjoying the idea
that
> > > Nadan is very powerful. He knows
> > > > that he has a lot of strength
and he
> > > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > > principles. For so many years
Magnus
> > > has lorded things over the Riders,
> > > > in part due to the fact that he
could
> > > wipe the floor with most of them.
> > > > Now he has to face someone with
as
> > > much power as he has, and the
> > > > strength to stand up to him. I
love
> > > the battle of wills between the
two
> > > > of them and just wish they both
> > > weren't my character. :)
> > > > Don't worry about Nadan
dying,
> > > especially if it comes about
because
> > > > he stands up for his beliefs.
He
> > > wasn't intentionally antagonizing
> > > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of
Talos,
> > > whose pretty opposed to everything
> > > > Lathander stands for. If
Ariakas had
> > > killed him, so be it. Not a
> > > > problem on my end.
> > > > But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > > intimidate you. I think, that
out of
> > > all
> > > > of us, high level characters
cause
> > > you more concern than any other
DM.
> > > > Nadan is not invulnerable. He
takes
> > > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > > and can be hurt. He has no real
> > > protections, and his hit points,
while
> > > > high, are not astronomical.
When
> > > hit, does he not bleed? :)
Trust me,
> > > > he was close to death quite a
bit
> > > last night.
> > > > I do have an apology to
make to
> > > you though. I had Nadan cast
> > > > spontaneous healing last night,
as
> > > clerics can do. I thought he
could
> > > > also swap out Heal and Mass Heal
> > > spells as well. Damon mentioned
last
> > > > night, when we looked up the
rules to
> > > see if he could spontaneously cast
> > > > Resurrection, that the rules
say only
> > > spells with Cure in the title. I
> > > > checked it out last night, and
Damon
> > > was right. So Nadan should not
> > > > have been able to cast as many
Mass
> > > Heal spells as he did last night.
> > > > That should make you feel
somewhat
> > > better. He takes one and that's
it.
> > > >
> > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > You're right on target! And
your
> > > > > summary captures where things
stand
> > > > > really well. OK, so here's
the
> > > deal:
> > > > >
> > > > > The group needs to track down
Celane
> > > > > and Dr. Klaw. Apparently,
Celane
> > > hates
> > > > > the Riders because one of them
> > > crippled
> > > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > > resentment
> > > > > is so strong that she's
trying to
> > > keep
> > > > > godhood out of their hands.
Dr.
> > > Klaw
> > > > > supposedly wants
to "liberate" his
> > > > > world from "merchant kings",
and
> > > seems
> > > > > to have been in control of the
> > > artifact
> > > > > from the start (since he's
such a
> > > bad
> > > > > guy).
> > > > >
> > > > > The gods are important
because the
> > > (now
> > > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted to
use
> > > them
> > > > > to weaken Dendar enough for
him to
> > > have
> > > > > a chance of gaining power
(kind of
> > > like
> > > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > > Beyonder
> > > > > for you comics readers). He
seems
> > > to
> > > > > have lost interest in this
pursuit
> > > as a
> > > > > result of talking to
Gargauth, a
> > > > > banished realms power who
traded
> > > > > membership in the nine with
freedom
> > > > > from hell (since the nine
have that
> > > > > authority).
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm really happy with how
things are
> > > > > going, and eager to see this
> > > conclude.
> > > > > As a DM, I'm facing two
challenges:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Nadan - nothing against
the
> > > > > character or how he's played,
but
> > > he's
> > > > > a combination of bad attitude
and
> > > > > tremendous power.
Individuals who
> > > > > might not go berzerk to kill
him
> > > > > normally (like Ariakas) find
that
> > > goal
> > > > > to be a necessity when he
taunts
> > > them.
> > > > > Ironically, he's becoming the
> > > Ceranno
> > > > > of the group.:).
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a problem for me on
only one
> > > > > level - I'm worried that if
he dies
> > > as
> > > > > a result of a situation like
this,
> > > it
> > > > > might seem like I'm gunning
for the
> > > > > character. I hope it's
understood
> > > by
> > > > > everyone that if Nadan picks
a fight
> > > > > with a big guy and dies, it's
really
> > > > > not my preference!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Convolution - I'm worried
that
> > > the
> > > > > plot is becoming so complex
that
> > > people
> > > > > need a score card. I really,
really
> > > > > hope to contain that next
week.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, I see this wrapping up
in the
> > > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire,
eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ok, first with a
summary, then
> > > > > with thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Riders had just
come from
> > > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > > and had harangued Elminster
into
> > > > > transporting them back to
Sigil. He
> > > > > > agreed, but when they passed
> > > through
> > > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast,
they
> > > > > > found themselves in Hell,
facing
> > > the
> > > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > > conversing with some devils.
> > > > > > The two groups briefly
spoke,
> > > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > > indication
> > > > > > of his plans, when suddenly
the
> > > Black
> > > > > Legion attacked. Already
wounded
> > > > > > from their battle in the
castle
> > > back
> > > > > on Faerun, Quasit and
Carpathia
> > > > > > were quickly killed. Magnus
> > > wanted
> > > > > to retreat, but the Riders
became
> > > > > > separated, and he was
unwilling to
> > > > > leave anyone behind. Mileena
used
> > > > > > her necromantic skills to
bring
> > > > > Carpathia back as an undead,
and the
> > > > > > Riders fought valiantly
against
> > > the
> > > > > Black Legion.
> > > > > > The battle was going
poorly
> > > when
> > > > > suddenly another Amrikol
appeared,
> > > > > > this one looking more like
the
> > > > > Amrikol the Riders had faced
in
> > > their
> > > > > > early days. He declared
the other
> > > > > Amrikol an impostor, and spat
on the
> > > > > > Black Legion (except for
Talon)
> > > who
> > > > > he felt had betrayed him by
working
> > > > > > for the doppleganger. The
Amrikol
> > > > > that had been leading the
Black
> > > > > > Legion recently tore off his
> > > helmet,
> > > > > revealing elvish features
that bore
> > > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > > Magnus. He
> > > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders
tried to
> > > stay
> > > > > out of the way. Eventually
they
> > > > > > joined the fight against
the elven
> > > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally
slew him
> > > > > > with a Meteor Swarm.
However, as
> > > > > soon as he died, he was
reborn as
> > > one
> > > > > > of the Nine, the arch-
fiends that
> > > > > rule Hell. Apparently he had
made a
> > > > > > deal with a banished Realms
power,
> > > > > although the specifics of the
deal
> > > > > > are unknown.
> > > > > > Faced with the power of
this
> > > new
> > > > > form, the Riders, the original
> > > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled
through a
> > > > > portal to Sigil. Once there
they
> > > went
> > > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and
parted ways
> > > > > with Amrikol and Talon. They
> > > rested,
> > > > > > then resurrected their
fallen
> > > > > comrades. Unsure of what to
do,
> > > they
> > > > > > began to research. Magnus
sent
> > > some
> > > > > of the group to research how
they
> > > > > > might gain the power they
have
> > > been
> > > > > chasing, while he went to
free a
> > > > > > devil in exchange for
information
> > > on
> > > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > > Amrikol. He also recruited
> > > Gadget to
> > > > > their team, as it seems that
they
> > > > > > will be dealing with Klaw,
his old
> > > > > enemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So where does that
leave them?
> > > > > Let me recap.
> > > > > > Dennis says that Klaw
will
> > > have
> > > > > joined up with Celane and the
> > > > > > deities, and is heading to
his
> > > home
> > > > > planet. Supposedly, Celane
called
> > > > > > the remnants of the deities
to her
> > > > > thanks to an artifact, the
claw of
> > > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > > However,
> > > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > > compunctions can use the
claw of
> > > > > Dendar to it's full
potential, and
> > > so
> > > > > > Celane will easily lose
control of
> > > > > the deities to Klaw. Klaw
will then
> > > > > > use the power he possesses
to "set
> > > > > right" things in his world.
The
> > > > > > Riders are going to journey
there
> > > to
> > > > > make sure Klaw does nothing
drastic
> > > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > > > Meanwhile, there is
still the
> > > > > problem of gaining the power
of the
> > > > > > gods. According to what the
> > > Riders
> > > > > have learned, the elvish
Amrikol is
> > > > > > now out of the race. Their
devil
> > > > > ally told them that one of
the Nine
> > > > > > would have no time or
interest in
> > > > > focusing their attention on
one
> > > measly
> > > > > > little prime world when
they can
> > > > > affect all realities
everywhere by
> > > > > > taking part in the Blood
War. He
> > > > > should no longer be involved.
> > > > > > However, the original
Amrikol
> > > is
> > > > > now interested in the power.
And
> > > > > > the Riders aren't sure how
to get
> > > > > it. It seems that they need
to
> > > > > > destroy Dendar the Night
Serpent
> > > to
> > > > > gain the power, but Dendar
killed
> > > > > > all the deities of that
Realm, so
> > > > > destroying him is no easy
task. The
> > > > > > Riders are looking into
ways to do
> > > > > that now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's it for me. I'd
be
> > > > > thrilled if someone would
comment
> > > on my
> > > > > > conclusions and tell me if
they
> > > are
> > > > > correct.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
>
>
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