[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday Morning Review

  • From: Johnathan Detrick <jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 15:30:41 -0400

    Hmm.  While everything sounds exciting, I thought that we had agreed
to put the Riders on the back burner and just do them for a few months.
I thought we were going to run a shorter plot for them, and then just do
short "movies" for them after that?  I can't say that I'm real
interested in a prolonged Riders campaign.  Am I confused?  Did I
misunderstand what we talked about before?

jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> Hmm.  Good question!  It's going to
> take a while.
>
> For starters, the low-level guys have
> to complete their quest for Sonya's
> soul.  That will take 1-2 sessions for
> the current leg (possibly an extra
> one).
>
> Then there will be 1-3 sessions for the
> next leg of that mission.
>
> After, they're looking at Sinjen's
> situation, I presume.  That's hard to
> predict right now - it depends on what
> they do.  To be safe, figure 4 weeks.
>
> And then there's Ilana and Kilian.  Not
> so easy to predict - future more
> cloudy, it is.
>
> All together, if we just did that
> group, we'd have plenty to play with
> until Christmas.
>
> By the way, John - is it a safe
> assumption that Magnus will stop
> copying spells for Master Lothar?
>
> OK, the other groups.  We have no
> active plans to DM Marnie's inquest for
> now, but that may change - fast -
> depending on Keith's availability.  And
> we'd also deal at that time with Zann,
> or whoever Keith may be interested in
> using at the time.
>
> The "higher powered" group could take a
> couple of directions.  If they decide
> to track down Celane, it could take
> several weeks.  If they decide to try
> to locate the world on their own, it
> could also take a while.  They could of
> course try other options - hunting down
> the Black Legion, or learning more
> about Dr. Klaw, for example.  I'd give
> the whole shebang at least several
> months to finish.
>
> All told, I could easily keep DMing
> until at least next summer -
>
> > I am honestly looking forward to it.
> I do have one question though.  Do you
> > have any idea how long it will take
> you to get both of these groups to a
> > point where you would consider
> them "finished"?
> >
> > I am just curious, because I would
> like to know how much time I have until
> I
> > start DMing the Sigil to their
> conclusion.  Also, has anyone thought
> anymore
> > on what we are going to do once the
> Sigil is completed?  I know we won't
> > really need to decide that until we
> get there, but assuming that Jim DM's
> > for a few more months and then I DM
> the Sigil to their conclusion, I foresee
> > them ending sometime before the end
> of the year next year.  Possibly around
> > this time frame.  So, we most likely
> have a year to decide what we want to
> > do, but I was just curious if anyone
> had any ideas.  Especially with the
> > idea that some of the Riders might be
> deities by that point, we could even
> > play around with the new world.
> >
> > Anyway, I wanted to get a heads up
> from you Jim, just so I can continue
> > planning with a time frame in mind of
> when I'll need to be ready by.
> >
> > I can't wait to play either of the
> groups together again.  The mini-riders
> > have an interesting mix of characters
> and personalities that makes them very
> > fun to play.  The riders are always
> interesting, especially because they can
> > kick some major tuckus and they will
> have to if they want to make it to the
> > prize.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002
> 10:17 AM
> > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday
> Morning Review
> >
> > Yes, next week should definitely be
> > more action-oriented.  I'd really
> like
> > to continue the adventure to help
> Sonya
> > find her soul.  When that is done,
> the
> > group will be heading back to the
> Green
> > Mill - an excellent time to
> springboard
> > to the other group if we want to.
> That
> > might be at the end of next week, but
> > the following week at the latest.
> >
> > > Okay, I'm back!  I missed the
> > beginning of the conversation, but I
> can
> > > participate now.  I echo John's
> > sentiments about the individual role
> > > playing.  It does tend to take away
> > from the momentum of the night and
> from
> > > the mood that is set.  If two
> people
> > aren't into the game, then they can't
> > > help establish the mood and end up
> > detracting from it.
> > >
> > > I did enjoy watching Mylena go
> around
> > and collect the Riders though.  It was
> > > fun to watch and Jim did a great
> job
> > of making it entertaining.  I would
> say
> > > that it would have been more fun to
> > get to play the characters together.
> > > Certainly that is more fun than
> > watching other people role-play for
> long
> > > periods of time.
> > >
> > > I can also say that over the past
> two
> > weeks my enthusiasm has lessened,
> > > simply because we didn't really get
> > much of a chance to work with the
> > > characters together as a group.  We
> > are still getting things "set up" and
> > > the set up stage is the most
> tedious
> > and least exciting from a group
> dynamic
> > > standpoint.  But, I look forward to
> > the next few weeks as we get to see
> the
> > > groups in action.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Johnathan Detrick
> > [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002
> > 1:21 PM
> > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re:
> Thursday
> > Morning Review
> > >
> > >
> > >     You have certainly given her
> tons
> > of style.  I'm interested to see
> > > her in action with the Riders.
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have to say also that I really
> > had no
> > > > idea if Mylena was going to
> > succeed -
> > > > especially at the end.  All of my
> > > > expectations had Rig doing all of
> > the
> > > > work, and her doing the
> > transportation
> > > > afterwards.
> > > >
> > > > She could have easily been killed
> by
> > > > Baish, if things had gone
> > differently,
> > > > or especially by Nadan.  Gadget
> > never
> > > > got the chance, and I was really
> > > > relieved that he didn't.  I don't
> > even
> > > > want to think about it if Marnie
> and
> > > > Escrima weren't my own characters
> > near
> > > > the end there.
> > > >
> > > > On a personal note, my favorite
> > moment
> > > > (one of them, anyway), was when
> > Nadan
> > > > made a very real threat to finish
> > her
> > > > off and she said "Hold on a
> minute,
> > I'm
> > > > thinking."  Very Swordfish, if
> you
> > ask
> > > > me!
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >     Oh thank God!  I feel so
> much
> > > > better!  I wanted to make sure you
> > > > > understand that I truly respect
> > your
> > > > skills as a DM, but I did want to
> > > > > make my feelings known.
> > > > >     I thought that Mylena
> > returning
> > > > was you trying to get us to do it
> > > > > ourselves, and I almost did.
> > > > However, Magnus had used Mylena
> in
> > the
> > > > > first place just so he didn't
> > have to
> > > > do it himself.  He figured, if he
> > > > > started going after people now,
> > why
> > > > bother to use her at all?
> > > > >     Anyway, I already feel
> better
> > > > about next week.  I'm anxious to
> > play
> > > > > again.
> > > > >
> > > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nah, you're right.  I'm really
> > > > > > committed to the long-term
> > story arc
> > > > > > that I envision, but it's
> > important
> > > > to
> > > > > > me that the foundation not be
> > > > > > undermined to rush to the good
> > > > stuff.
> > > > > > Last night, I went in
> assuming
> > that
> > > > > > after the first two or three
> > > > characters
> > > > > > got free, they'd get together
> > with
> > > > > > Magnus and take care of the
> > rest on
> > > > > > their own (eliminating any
> need
> > for
> > > > > > individual roleplaying).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's one reason why Mylena
> > came
> > > > back
> > > > > > partway thru - she thought
> that
> > the
> > > > > > group only needed her to get
> > them
> > > > > > started, and they'd take it
> from
> > > > > > there.  Still, though, it was
> > > > important
> > > > > > to me that the characters come
> > > > together
> > > > > > in a plausible way - after
> all,
> > they
> > > > > > were put on the planes in a
> > manner
> > > > that
> > > > > > made it tough to leave, and I
> > didn't
> > > > > > want to make that seem like a
> > > > trivial
> > > > > > limitation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't foresee any need for
> > nights
> > > > > > like the last few down the
> > road -
> > > > > > actually, if it does happen,
> > I'll be
> > > > > > banging my head on the wall
> to
> > keep
> > > > > > things moving - but it does
> seem
> > > > like
> > > > > > it's becoming the norm.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess the stakes are so
> high
> > in
> > > > what
> > > > > > we're doing with
> the "powerful"
> > > > group,
> > > > > > that I want to make sure the
> > group
> > > > > > earns their victory - warts
> and
> > all.
> > > > > > The last thing we need is for
> > the
> > > > > > characters to easily obtain
> > godhood,
> > > > > > and then for us as players to
> > find
> > > > the
> > > > > > whole thing so unsatisfying
> > that we
> > > > > > look for ways to make them
> > mortal
> > > > again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Definitely open to
> suggestions -
> >  I'm
> > > > > > actually planning on emailing
> > Shawn
> > > > B.
> > > > > > soon (hee hee) to get guru
> level
> > > > advice
> > > > > > on my long term plans, but
> it's
> > > > > > important most of all that
> > everyone
> > > > is
> > > > > > having fun when we get
> > together -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     Ok, I'm going to start
> by
> > > > being
> > > > > > honest.  I have been debating
> > how to
> > > > > > > respond to Jim's e-mail,
> > which may
> > > > > > seem odd, since I am the cold
> > > > hearted
> > > > > > > bastard of the group and I
> > usually
> > > > > > have no problem being
> honest.
> > My
> > > > > > > concern is that I know that
> > Jim
> > > > is a
> > > > > > superior DM, and I don't want
> > this
> > > > > > > taken the wrong way.  That
> > being
> > > > > > said, I didn't enjoy last
> night
> > as
> > > > much
> > > > > > > as I had hoped to.
> > > > > > >     I think the thing that
> > really
> > > > > > killed me was the second week
> > in a
> > > > row
> > > > > > > of individual role-
> playing.
> > It
> > > > seems
> > > > > > to be a common thread for us,
> > and
> > > > > > > I'm not sure how we became
> > caught
> > > > in
> > > > > > the trap.  Three weeks ago,
> > before
> > > > > > > the Riders fought Rig, Jim
> had
> > > > > > brought the subject up with
> > me.  I
> > > > had
> > > > > > > advised against it.  He
> > decided
> > > > to do
> > > > > > it anyway, and he did some
> > > > > > > individual role-playing with
> > > > Ilana,
> > > > > > Kilian, Valeria and the
> group.
> > And
> > > > > > > it went very well.  Jim
> jumped
> > > > from
> > > > > > one player to another and
> kept
> > the
> > > > > > > sessions short.  He had
> > proved me
> > > > > > wrong; individual role-
> playing
> > can
> > > > > > > work, and he went on to DM
> > one of
> > > > the
> > > > > > best nights of D&D we have
> had
> > in
> > > > > > > a long time.  He also left
> me
> > > > feeling
> > > > > > incredibly positive and
> excited
> > > > > > > about the future.  I
> believe,
> > if
> > > > Jim
> > > > > > had suggested it, I would have
> > > > > > > called off work, and told
> > Brad I
> > > > > > wasn't coming home, and then
> > > > barricaded
> > > > > > > myself in the basement for
> the
> > > > next
> > > > > > three weeks straight to see
> > what Jim
> > > > > > > had planned.
> > > > > > >     Then last week
> happened.
> > We
> > > > did
> > > > > > almost all individual role-
> > playing,
> > > > > > > and it caused the night to
> > slow
> > > > > > down.  I know that when I
> left
> > last
> > > > > > > week, my enthusiasm had
> > dimmed a
> > > > > > little, but I was still
> excited.
> > > > > > > Unfortunately, last night
> was
> > > > more of
> > > > > > the same.  I had hoped that
> Jim
> > > > > > > would quickly gather the
> party
> > > > and we
> > > > > > could be off.  Instead, each
> > > > > > > individual character was
> > gathered.
> > > > > > It took almost all night.
> And
> > I'm
> > > > > > > afraid it drained my
> > enthusiasm
> > > > even
> > > > > > more.
> > > > > > >     I'm still looking
> forward
> > to
> > > > > > where Jim is going with this
> > plot.
> > > > As
> > > > > > > we saw three weeks ago, he
> > can DM
> > > > an
> > > > > > adventure better than most,
> and
> > > > > > > deliver us a great night of
> > role-
> > > > > > playing.  But I fear that the
> > last
> > > > two
> > > > > > > weeks have leeched some of
> the
> > > > > > momentum he had going.  It's
> > going
> > > > to be
> > > > > > > more work on everyone's
> part
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > us back to the fever pitch we
> > were
> > > > > > > in a few weeks ago.
> > > > > > >     Comments?  Please?  I
> > don't
> > > > > > intend to be overly critical
> of
> > > > Jim.  I
> > > > > > > know how hard it can be to
> DM
> > (I
> > > > am
> > > > > > the person that has had more
> > than
> > > > > > > one campaign that I put a
> lot
> > of
> > > > work
> > > > > > into shot out from under me
> when
> > > > > > > the players said that they
> > weren't
> > > > > > interested), and I know Jim
> can
> > pull
> > > > > > > it together.  But the last
> few
> > > > weeks
> > > > > > just haven't worked for me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know about
> everyone
> > > > else,
> > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > had a good time last
> > night!  It
> > > > was
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > odd night, in a way, as
> > only one
> > > > > > player
> > > > > > > > was doing anything at any
> > given
> > > > time
> > > > > > > > for most of it.  I didn't
> > intend
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > at first, but somehow it
> > worked.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The gist was Magnus sent
> > > > Mylena, his
> > > > > > > > alternate-reality daughter
> > > > (believe
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > or not, it all makes
> sense
> > from
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > campaign perspective)
> > > > to "capture"
> > > > > > > > certain Riders who were
> > > > imprisoned
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the outer planes.  If
> they
> > left
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > their own free will, or
> > > > knowingly,
> > > > > > > > there was a greater
> chance
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > gods
> > > > > > > > becoming offended or
> > realizing
> > > > what
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > happening.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And since the gods have no
> > > > > > influence in
> > > > > > > > the city of Sigil, and
> since
> > > > Mylena
> > > > > > > > technically never existed
> in
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > characters' version of
> > > > > > the "realms", it
> > > > > > > > seemed plausible that her
> > > > activities
> > > > > > > > could go unnoticed for a
> > period
> > > > of
> > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the end, Mylena
> > succeeded in
> > > > > > > > capturing most of the
> Riders
> > > > she was
> > > > > > > > sent for after a very
> > difficult
> > > > > > > > struggle.  She exhausted
> > Rig,
> > > > my now
> > > > > > > > very-deceased evil 17th
> > level
> > > > > > > > gladiator, five powerful
> > > > mercenary
> > > > > > > > githyanki, and almost
> > herself
> > > > to do
> > > > > > > > it.  She used sheer power,
> > > > > > treachery,
> > > > > > > > luck, or whatever it
> would
> > take
> > > > to
> > > > > > pull
> > > > > > > > it off, and it was fun to
> > see in
> > > > > > action
> > > > > > > > since I didn't have a
> > definite
> > > > > > outcome
> > > > > > > > in mind.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I thought about forcing
> > > > characters
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > be captured last night,
> but
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > end,
> > > > > > > > I would be helping the
> > Riders to
> > > > > > win.
> > > > > > > > And that wouldn't be
> fair.
> > It
> > > > may
> > > > > > > > sound like a "yeah sure"
> > thing,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > group's rivals (like
> > Celane, the
> > > > > > Black
> > > > > > > > Legion, and maybe Dr.
> Klaw)
> > all
> > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > chance to succeed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So the Riders ended up
> > > > prisoners of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Dustmen faction in Sigil's
> > > > Mortuary
> > > > > > (as
> > > > > > > > Mylena is a member there -
> > > > > > apparently,
> > > > > > > > she's at least partly a
> > > > > > necromancer).
> > > > > > > > They were released
> > > > simultaneously
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > gas-filled iron caskets,
> and
> > > > > > proceeded
> > > > > > > > to deal with their
> > situation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the end, Magnus got a
> > core
> > > > group
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > agree to his crusade.
> Some
> > > > other
> > > > > > > > characters offered to help
> > > > Marnie
> > > > > > (my
> > > > > > > > swashbuckler) search for
> her
> > > > > > husband,
> > > > > > > > Surrote, who had gone
> > missing
> > > > on his
> > > > > > > > own and couldn't be
> located
> > by
> > > > > > Mylena.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ambrosia preferred to
> remain
> > > > > > retired,
> > > > > > > > running her new inn, and
> > > > the "lower
> > > > > > > > level" riders that we
> used
> > last
> > > > week
> > > > > > > > are still doing their own
> > thing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And that is where we
> ended.
> > > > > > > > Thoughts/comments?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >


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