[dungeoncrawl] Re: Sigil leaders

  • From: "Robert Deibler" <rdeibler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:42:41 -0500

This group is alot of fun, poor Damon will only do about a room a night at our 
roleplaying pace. I realized I made a big mistake on Liz's character I gave her 
no Performance skills which I should have, so I think she will be watching and 
studying Cullen and starting to duplicate his style :)

        -----Original Message----- 
        From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
        Sent: Tue 11/26/2002 3:35 PM 
        To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Cc: 
        Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Sigil leaders
        
        


            Well, you said last night that she was just about to step up and do 
the leader thing.  Maybe she should next week.  I'd like to see the party vote 
on it, but I'm not sure if they are in the right place for an exercise in 
democracy.
        
        Robert Deibler wrote:
        
        > Your right I think She would make a good leader, she has a true 
concerns for the "original" members and often watches out for them during the 
course of battle (if they need or not). But her emotions are nit kept in check 
she tells it like it is. Or in the worse case tweaks when her hated foes 
around. I don't think she is wreakless in the pursuit to kill her foe, she just 
does not give any peace to them.
        >
        >         -----Original Message-----
        >         From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
        >         Sent: Tue 11/26/2002 3:25 PM
        >         To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        >         Cc:
        >         Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Sigil leaders
        >
        >
        >
        >             Tori could work as a leader, since she has some great 
qualities for
        >         it.  I just wonder if her intense emotions might not land the 
party in
        >         some deep trouble.
        >
        >         jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
        >
        >         > I think Kage does work well as a leader
        >         > (he may be the most effective leader
        >         > that I've played), but he's slipping in
        >         > that role.  Originally, he would have
        >         > started things off correctly with Tori
        >         > and Ivan.  But he's slipping - he knows
        >         > the appropriate way a leader should
        >         > behave, but it's become tired to him.
        >         >
        >         > For example, on first meeting Tori, he
        >         > came across deliberately as aloof and
        >         > uninterested.  He considered
        >         > approaching her by saying,
        >         >
        >         > "Tori, it's nice to meet you.  I'm
        >         > almost intimidated, as this entire
        >         > group speaks words of praise about you
        >         > night and day.  I am Kage Selden; your
        >         > friends have asked me to serve as their
        >         > strategist and leader for some time
        >         > now.  I hope you are able to help us
        >         > with our current situation."
        >         >
        >         > But he was like, "nah - forget that!
        >         > it's not worth the trouble."  Classic
        >         > sign of a leader who's run his course -
        >         > after all, he keeps reminding himself
        >         > that he's not a nice person, and he has
        >         > a quest to get back to after all.
        >         >
        >         > I'm mostly going into his character
        >         > this deeply to indicate things that
        >         > your characters should pick up on,
        >         > since they've known him this long -
        >         > he's definitely in a different mindset
        >         > than before his absence.
        >         >
        >         > Personally, I have no expectations as
        >         > to whether he'll lead the group again -
        >         > I'm still reeling from the unexpected
        >         > directions things went last night!  My
        >         > only interest at this point in my D&D
        >         > career is to try and guess how such
        >         > people would act in such situations.
        >         >
        >         > OK, enough rambling.  Maybe you pointed
        >         > something out, John, that makes perfect
        >         > sense - Kage and Tori are very
        >         > similar.  Maybe she would make a great
        >         > replacement?
        >         >
        >         > >     I've been thinking a lot about
        >         > the future leader of the Sigil.  I
        >         > > think I attach more importance to the
        >         > leader of the group than some of
        >         > > the other players, but I feel that
        >         > the leader helps to set the tone for
        >         > > the campaign.  Imagine if Ambrosia
        >         > had led the Riders during their
        >         > > formative years rather than Magnus.
        >         > Would the campaign have had the
        >         > > same flavor?  Gone the same
        >         > directions?  What about Cassius?
        >         > Karvas?
        >         > > Jaran?  In each case, I believe the
        >         > group would have gone in a different
        >         > > way than it did.  Likewise, depending
        >         > on who leads the Sigil, the party
        >         > > may have a different tone.
        >         > >     Of the eight people in the party,
        >         > some of them have a lot of
        >         > > potential as leaders, while others
        >         > don't have much potential at all.  My
        >         > > experience in real life, is that
        >         > given an oportunity to lead, some
        >         > > people will rise to the occassion,
        >         > and some people will fall apart.
        >         > > Following is my observations on the
        >         > characters and my thoughts on how
        >         > > they would do as a leader.  I have
        >         > rated them on a scale of 1 to 10 as a
        >         > > leader.  1 is the worst leader in the
        >         > world (like General Custer or any
        >         > > Republican) and a 10 is the best
        >         > leader (like Alexander the Great or
        >         > > Magnus Xavier).
        >         > >
        >         > >     Elizabeth (1) is probably the
        >         > worst choice for leader, and I would
        >         > > suggest that she would feel the same
        >         > way.  She doesn't have a lot of
        >         > > experience in the sort of adventures
        >         > that the Sigil engage in.  She
        >         > > usually tries to stay out of the way
        >         > in combat, and I don't think she
        >         > > would want to give her position away
        >         > by yelling to the rest of the group
        >         > > when she had orders.  And I'm not yet
        >         > convinced that she wouldn't sell
        >         > > out the rest of the group to save her
        >         > own skin.
        >         > >     It was interesting last night to
        >         > see that Elizabeth does indeed have
        >         > > information she has not shared with
        >         > the party.  How will the Sigil react
        >         > > to that when they find out?  Will
        >         > they feel betrayed?  Enlightened?  It
        >         > > probably depends on what the
        >         > information is and how and when she
        >         > > discloses it.  We also saw some inner
        >         > fire during her argument with
        >         > > Cullen, which we hadn't seen before.
        >         > She again demonstarted some of her
        >         > > spririt when she took on the drider,
        >         > which was surprising.  And I was
        >         > > very interested when she began
        >         > beating the dead ones, her frustration
        >         > > overwhelming her.  It will be
        >         > fascinating to see how she progresses.
        >         > > She was already an outsider in the
        >         > group, and now that her closest ally
        >         > > (Cullen) has seemingly betrayed her
        >         > (by not supporting her attempt to
        >         > > convince the group not to fight the
        >         > mind flayers), I'm curious where she
        >         > > will turn.
        >         > >
        >         > >     Whilce (4) wouldn't make nearly
        >         > the leader that Kage thinks he
        >         > > might.  Whilce makes decisions
        >         > quickly, which can be great for a
        >         > leader,
        >         > > but in Whilce's case, its because he
        >         > doesn't bother to think things
        >         > > through before he does them.  He does
        >         > stay in the thick of things, but
        >         > > that doesn't mean that he would make
        >         > a good leader.  Whilce is way too
        >         > > concerned with having fun and
        >         > enjoying himself, always looking for the
        >         > > next new experience, to keep the
        >         > party safe.  He would gladly march the
        >         > > group into deadly danger, just to see
        >         > what might happen.
        >         > >     Whilce is necessary to the group,
        >         > though, even if he isn't the
        >         > > leader.  With the group so often
        >         > frustrated and unhappy, or perhaps just
        >         > > tense, Whilce provides a source of
        >         > happiness and amusement to the
        >         > > group.  He's always in a good mood,
        >         > and that has to rub off on the
        >         > > others.  He gets along with everyone
        >         > in the group, even if some of them
        >         > > do regard him as mentally
        >         > uncompentent.  He's not stupid.  He
        >         > just wants
        >         > > to have fun and experience things,
        >         > and thinking gets in the way
        >         > > sometimes.  Last night was a perfect
        >         > example.  There was no way he was
        >         > > going to stand behind the mushrooms
        >         > while Kage talked to the duergar.
        >         > > He wanted to go out, and he waited
        >         > until he had an excuse (flimsy as it
        >         > > was) to get involved.  He looked
        >         > stupid, but he was actually just
        >         > > bored.  Watch his reactions some
        >         > time.  The longer the party has gone
        >         > > without excitement, and the more
        >         > restrained he has to be, the more
        >         > > riduculous he acts and the more he
        >         > tries to get the party involved in
        >         > > something he deems more interesting
        >         > than what they have been doing.
        >         > >
        >         > >     Alturo (5) has a lot of great
        >         > qualities about him.  He's a fast
        >         > > thinker and very creatve, which is
        >         > great for a leader.  He doesn't have
        >         > > any real enemies in the party, which
        >         > is a plus.  He's usually in the
        >         > > thick of the fight, which is
        >         > helpful.  However, he tends to be very
        >         > > focused on himself, and not the rest
        >         > of the group.  Now don't get me
        >         > > wrong, he's not selfish or
        >         > egocentric.  But he's very caught up in
        >         > what
        >         > > he is doing, and doesn't always give
        >         > his attention to what is going on
        >         > > around him.  He also tends to be very
        >         > focused on his goddess and his
        >         > > goals, making him a little less
        >         > suited than he otherwise might be.
        >         > >     The other problem with Alturo as
        >         > a leader?  The party tends to think
        >         > > of him as a joke.  I'm not completely
        >         > sure why that is.  Part of it, I
        >         > > berlieve, is our tendency to
        >         > marginalize the short races.  We don't
        >         > > usually have a lot of gnomes,
        >         > halflings and dwraves around, and when
        >         > we
        >         > > do, they tend to be less serious.
        >         > The voice Jim uses for Alturo also
        >         > > serves to make him less than
        >         > serious.  The reason that this confuses
        >         > me
        >         > > is vbecause Alturo has shown time and
        >         > time again to be the most
        >         > > devastatingly effective member of the
        >         > party.  Bar none.  Given the
        >         > > choice, I'd rather have Alturo on my
        >         > side than anyone else.  He has more
        >         > > options than any other character in
        >         > the group, and always seems to have
        >         > > an out for any situaiton.  With the
        >         > absence of a mage, Alturo seems to
        >         > > be our magical muscle.  At the same
        >         > time, he also does more healing than
        >         > > anyone in the party.  Alturo fufills
        >         > so many different party functions
        >         > > it is amazing.  He rarely gets badly
        >         > hurt, and he is everywhere he needs
        >         > > to be.  Yet we treat him like a
        >         > joke.  Go figure.
        >         > >
        >         > >     Neiris (6) would make a great
        >         > leader, except for two reasons.  The
        >         > > first is the fact that he doesn't
        >         > want the job (but then, who does?).
        >         > > The bigger reason is that he is a
        >         > quiet, circumpsect man who often keeps
        >         > > his opinions to himself.  Sadly,
        >         > that's the direct opposite of the
        >         > > qualitiy he would need to lead the
        >         > Sigil.
        >         > >     Neiris probably commands more
        >         > respect than anyone else in the
        >         > > group.  I would say, of all the
        >         > characters, he is the one that all of
        >         > > the group likes and respects.  He
        >         > knows combat well, and has a good
        >         > > tactical sense.  He is not overly
        >         > emotional and is certainly the most
        >         > > stable person in the Sigil.  All of
        >         > these combine to make him one hell
        >         > > of a leader, except that I just don't
        >         > think he would exert any authority
        >         > > over the others.  He might have a
        >         > good idea or have a sharp plan, but
        >         > > would he tell the others and expect
        >         > them to follow it?  No.  Besides,
        >         > > Neiris tends to find a nice quiet
        >         > corner in a fight, somewhere he can
        >         > > pelt the opposition with arrows while
        >         > remaining relatively safe.  That
        >         > > would make it difficult for him to
        >         > lead, as shouting orders would tend
        >         > > to give away his position, thus
        >         > reducing his effectiveness.
        >         > >     I'm very happy that Matt seems to
        >         > have taken Neiris where he wants
        >         > > him.  In some ways though, I feel
        >         > sorry for Neiris.  After all, when
        >         > > Pierce left the group, Neiris took
        >         > over as their archer, and was doing a
        >         > > find job at it.  He had found his
        >         > niche and was filling it.  Then Tori
        >         > > returned, and all of a sudden Neiris
        >         > had a rival for position of party
        >         > > archer.  Not only that, but Neiris
        >         > was the scout, and now Tori also
        >         > > threatened that position.  It could
        >         > have been a very interesting
        >         > > position for the two of them, and an
        >         > intense compeition could have shot
        >         > > up.  Instead, true to the personality
        >         > that we have come to know, Neiris
        >         > > welcomed Tori with open arms, and
        >         > they have proven to be very
        >         > > complementary, making a very
        >         > effective team.
        >         > >
        >         > >     Tori (7) has a lot of potential
        >         > as a leader.  She has the tactical
        >         > > skill, and she knows how to deploy
        >         > forces.  She's respected (I think) as
        >         > > a warrior, which is a big plus.  And
        >         > she's tough as nails.  However, she
        >         > > tends to be very emotional, often
        >         > letting her heart steal away with her
        >         > > common sense in battle.  Her
        >         > overwhelming hatred of her chosen foes,
        >         > > along with her intense hatred of
        >         > Kage, make her a little unstable, and
        >         > > prone to making decisions that may
        >         > not be thought out.  She would make a
        >         > > good leader, but she could lead the
        >         > party to disaster if she can't keep
        >         > > a tighter rein on her feelings.  No
        >         > matter if she leads or not, I think
        >         > > it's obvious Tori will always play a
        >         > large role in organizing the group
        >         > > for a fight.  She's certainly never
        >         > been shy about speaking her mind,
        >         > > and since her ideas are often
        >         > excellent, any good leader is going to
        >         > > listen to them.  However, she is also
        >         > incredibly independant, which
        >         > > could be a large problem for any
        >         > leader.  Perhaps taking over the group
        >         > > would help to curb her impulse to go
        >         > running off on her own.
        >         > >     Tori continues to be a strong
        >         > forve in the party.  She has one of
        >         > > the strongest personalities, and is
        >         > always involved in most any
        >         > > discussion.  The animosity between
        >         > her and Kage make for some tense
        >         > > party meetings, and I'm curious where
        >         > it's going to go.  It seems to be
        >         > > too big to simply fade away.  I
        >         > believe it must either explode into open
        >         > > combat, or something will happen to
        >         > force the two of them to admit their
        >         > > differences, and work as allies.
        >         > Last night they agreed on a course of
        >         > > action, which was great.  As I've
        >         > said before, their biggest priblem is
        >         > > that they are too alike and we
        >         > finally got to witness that.
        >         > >
        >         > >     Ivan (8) has a lot of potential
        >         > to be a leader, and probably would
        >         > > get the job if the party knew him
        >         > better.  Just being a paladin gives
        >         > > him some bonus points.  They tend to
        >         > exude confidence and trust and
        >         > > people react well to that.  His
        >         > leadership could boost morale and keep
        >         > > the party in good spirits, perhaps
        >         > diffusing some of the tension they
        >         > > have seen of late.  The only problems
        >         > he has are a lack of knowledge of
        >         > > the group (he doesn't really know
        >         > them well, or their capabilities) and
        >         > > a rather simplistic world view.  He
        >         > seems to see things in terms of
        >         > > black and white, as many paladins do,
        >         > which could result in the group
        >         > > being led to fight evil that they
        >         > should just leave alone.  Still, there
        >         > > is more potential in Ivan than in
        >         > most of the rest of the group.
        >         > >     We really haven't had the
        >         > opportunity to see Ivan in combat, and
        >         > I'm
        >         > > anxious to do so.  Most of the fights
        >         > he has been in have seen him stuck
        >         > > in a bubble until the fight was
        >         > mostly over, and last night consisted of
        >         > > mostly distance attacks, which Ivan
        >         > lacks.  I think he will be a most
        >         > > effective cpombatant when he gets a
        >         > chance to strut his stuff.  However,
        >         > > the great thing about Ivan is his
        >         > prsonality.  I love him calling Cullen
        >         > > "boy"!  Ivan might be just what the
        >         > party needs to become a more
        >         > > cohesive group.
        >         > >
        >         > >     Cullen (9) seems to be the
        >         > unofficial second in command of the
        >         > > group, which is a position that he
        >         > thinks is just fine.  He has a good
        >         > > tactical mind, he's charismatic, he's
        >         > liked (usually) by the people in
        >         > > the party, and if he isn't willing to
        >         > lead the group into combat, he has
        >         > > an illusion of himself ready to take
        >         > his place. The biggest problems
        >         > > against Cullen are his emotions
        >         > (which can run a little strong at times,
        >         > > overwhelming his better judgment) and
        >         > his desire not to have the job.
        >         > > He likes working behind the scenes,
        >         > talking with Kage and trying
        >         > > (sometimes unsuccessfully) to give
        >         > him his input.  At the same time,
        >         > > Cullen is one of the people that,
        >         > given a chance at leadership, will
        >         > > rise to the occassion.  As I've
        >         > mentioned, Cullen is slowly growing into
        >         > > the role of a hero, and he could grow
        >         > into the role of a leader, if he
        >         > > had to.
        >         > >     Cullen's transformation from 2nd
        >         > edition pseudo-mage to 3rd edition
        >         > > psuedo-fighter/thief has been
        >         > dramatic.  Yet I almost enjoy him more
        >         > > like this.  I never liked him this
        >         > much when he was a junior mage; it
        >         > > didn't fit the character.  He seems
        >         > more like a bard than he ever did
        >         > > before, having some skills and feats
        >         > that fit almost any class.  He has
        >         > > a lot of other abilities that I
        >         > haven't played with in awhile (since the
        >         > > party has been underground so much)
        >         > but I hope to have the chance soon.
        >         > >     By the way, does anyone wonder if
        >         > there mnight not be another reason
        >         > > Cullen flipped out at Elizabeth?  One
        >         > has to wonder if he isn't a little
        >         > > threatened by another actor in the
        >         > group.  The two of them do overlap in
        >         > > a lot of ways.
        >         > >
        >         > >     Kage (10) really is the best
        >         > leader for the group.  Many of the
        >         > > characters might disagree with me,
        >         > and some of the players might as
        >         > > well, but I stand by this statement.
        >         > Kage is smart.  He knows tactics.
        >         > > He's creative and thinks quickly.  He
        >         > is willing to stand in the thick
        >         > > of combat with the troops.  He isn't
        >         > burdened by too many emotions, and
        >         > > his decisions are more likely to be
        >         > predicated on logic.  He is somewhat
        >         > > overly focused on his goals (to
        >         > avenge himself on the phaerimm), but he
        >         > > needs the party alive for that, so
        >         > his focus shifts to keeping them
        >         > > alive.   He isn't always well liked,
        >         > but he doesn't care, and I'm not
        >         > > sure that it's important in his case.
        >         > >     Kage possesses one thing in
        >         > spades that every leader needs;
        >         > > personality.  Usually I say that it's
        >         > helpful to have a high charisma to
        >         > > be a leader, but in Kage's case, I
        >         > think the strength of his personality
        >         > > more than compensates.  An example of
        >         > Kage's personality is easy to come
        >         > > by.  Let's be honest.  Who forgets
        >         > that Kage can even cast spells?
        >         > > Seriously, when was the last time he
        >         > did.  He's almost as powerful as
        >         > > Alturo, yet he rarely deigns to cast
        >         > anything.  Instead, he simply wades
        >         > > into a fight, swinging and throwing
        >         > his axe and staring the enemies into
        >         > > submissions.  It's quite impressive.
        >         > >     Kage continues to be the driving
        >         > force behgind the party, even when
        >         > > he isn't leading it.  In the end, all
        >         > of their recent problems still
        >         > > stem from his actions, and he still
        >         > pushes the party where he wants it
        >         > > to go.  Kage has problems with some
        >         > of the members; his problems with
        >         > > Tori have already been mentioned, and
        >         > he argues with Cullen quite a
        >         > > bit.  He isn't on very good relations
        >         > with Alturo, and Elizabeth is
        >         > > afraid of him.  But he continues to
        >         > be the most important character in
        >         > > the group, and the perfect leader.
        >         > >
        >         > >
        >         > >
        >         > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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