[dungeoncrawl] Re: Sigil leaders

  • From: Johnathan Detrick <jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:25:22 -0500

    Tori could work as a leader, since she has some great qualities for
it.  I just wonder if her intense emotions might not land the party in
some deep trouble.

jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> I think Kage does work well as a leader
> (he may be the most effective leader
> that I've played), but he's slipping in
> that role.  Originally, he would have
> started things off correctly with Tori
> and Ivan.  But he's slipping - he knows
> the appropriate way a leader should
> behave, but it's become tired to him.
>
> For example, on first meeting Tori, he
> came across deliberately as aloof and
> uninterested.  He considered
> approaching her by saying,
>
> "Tori, it's nice to meet you.  I'm
> almost intimidated, as this entire
> group speaks words of praise about you
> night and day.  I am Kage Selden; your
> friends have asked me to serve as their
> strategist and leader for some time
> now.  I hope you are able to help us
> with our current situation."
>
> But he was like, "nah - forget that!
> it's not worth the trouble."  Classic
> sign of a leader who's run his course -
> after all, he keeps reminding himself
> that he's not a nice person, and he has
> a quest to get back to after all.
>
> I'm mostly going into his character
> this deeply to indicate things that
> your characters should pick up on,
> since they've known him this long -
> he's definitely in a different mindset
> than before his absence.
>
> Personally, I have no expectations as
> to whether he'll lead the group again -
> I'm still reeling from the unexpected
> directions things went last night!  My
> only interest at this point in my D&D
> career is to try and guess how such
> people would act in such situations.
>
> OK, enough rambling.  Maybe you pointed
> something out, John, that makes perfect
> sense - Kage and Tori are very
> similar.  Maybe she would make a great
> replacement?
>
> >     I've been thinking a lot about
> the future leader of the Sigil.  I
> > think I attach more importance to the
> leader of the group than some of
> > the other players, but I feel that
> the leader helps to set the tone for
> > the campaign.  Imagine if Ambrosia
> had led the Riders during their
> > formative years rather than Magnus.
> Would the campaign have had the
> > same flavor?  Gone the same
> directions?  What about Cassius?
> Karvas?
> > Jaran?  In each case, I believe the
> group would have gone in a different
> > way than it did.  Likewise, depending
> on who leads the Sigil, the party
> > may have a different tone.
> >     Of the eight people in the party,
> some of them have a lot of
> > potential as leaders, while others
> don't have much potential at all.  My
> > experience in real life, is that
> given an oportunity to lead, some
> > people will rise to the occassion,
> and some people will fall apart.
> > Following is my observations on the
> characters and my thoughts on how
> > they would do as a leader.  I have
> rated them on a scale of 1 to 10 as a
> > leader.  1 is the worst leader in the
> world (like General Custer or any
> > Republican) and a 10 is the best
> leader (like Alexander the Great or
> > Magnus Xavier).
> >
> >     Elizabeth (1) is probably the
> worst choice for leader, and I would
> > suggest that she would feel the same
> way.  She doesn't have a lot of
> > experience in the sort of adventures
> that the Sigil engage in.  She
> > usually tries to stay out of the way
> in combat, and I don't think she
> > would want to give her position away
> by yelling to the rest of the group
> > when she had orders.  And I'm not yet
> convinced that she wouldn't sell
> > out the rest of the group to save her
> own skin.
> >     It was interesting last night to
> see that Elizabeth does indeed have
> > information she has not shared with
> the party.  How will the Sigil react
> > to that when they find out?  Will
> they feel betrayed?  Enlightened?  It
> > probably depends on what the
> information is and how and when she
> > discloses it.  We also saw some inner
> fire during her argument with
> > Cullen, which we hadn't seen before.
> She again demonstarted some of her
> > spririt when she took on the drider,
> which was surprising.  And I was
> > very interested when she began
> beating the dead ones, her frustration
> > overwhelming her.  It will be
> fascinating to see how she progresses.
> > She was already an outsider in the
> group, and now that her closest ally
> > (Cullen) has seemingly betrayed her
> (by not supporting her attempt to
> > convince the group not to fight the
> mind flayers), I'm curious where she
> > will turn.
> >
> >     Whilce (4) wouldn't make nearly
> the leader that Kage thinks he
> > might.  Whilce makes decisions
> quickly, which can be great for a
> leader,
> > but in Whilce's case, its because he
> doesn't bother to think things
> > through before he does them.  He does
> stay in the thick of things, but
> > that doesn't mean that he would make
> a good leader.  Whilce is way too
> > concerned with having fun and
> enjoying himself, always looking for the
> > next new experience, to keep the
> party safe.  He would gladly march the
> > group into deadly danger, just to see
> what might happen.
> >     Whilce is necessary to the group,
> though, even if he isn't the
> > leader.  With the group so often
> frustrated and unhappy, or perhaps just
> > tense, Whilce provides a source of
> happiness and amusement to the
> > group.  He's always in a good mood,
> and that has to rub off on the
> > others.  He gets along with everyone
> in the group, even if some of them
> > do regard him as mentally
> uncompentent.  He's not stupid.  He
> just wants
> > to have fun and experience things,
> and thinking gets in the way
> > sometimes.  Last night was a perfect
> example.  There was no way he was
> > going to stand behind the mushrooms
> while Kage talked to the duergar.
> > He wanted to go out, and he waited
> until he had an excuse (flimsy as it
> > was) to get involved.  He looked
> stupid, but he was actually just
> > bored.  Watch his reactions some
> time.  The longer the party has gone
> > without excitement, and the more
> restrained he has to be, the more
> > riduculous he acts and the more he
> tries to get the party involved in
> > something he deems more interesting
> than what they have been doing.
> >
> >     Alturo (5) has a lot of great
> qualities about him.  He's a fast
> > thinker and very creatve, which is
> great for a leader.  He doesn't have
> > any real enemies in the party, which
> is a plus.  He's usually in the
> > thick of the fight, which is
> helpful.  However, he tends to be very
> > focused on himself, and not the rest
> of the group.  Now don't get me
> > wrong, he's not selfish or
> egocentric.  But he's very caught up in
> what
> > he is doing, and doesn't always give
> his attention to what is going on
> > around him.  He also tends to be very
> focused on his goddess and his
> > goals, making him a little less
> suited than he otherwise might be.
> >     The other problem with Alturo as
> a leader?  The party tends to think
> > of him as a joke.  I'm not completely
> sure why that is.  Part of it, I
> > berlieve, is our tendency to
> marginalize the short races.  We don't
> > usually have a lot of gnomes,
> halflings and dwraves around, and when
> we
> > do, they tend to be less serious.
> The voice Jim uses for Alturo also
> > serves to make him less than
> serious.  The reason that this confuses
> me
> > is vbecause Alturo has shown time and
> time again to be the most
> > devastatingly effective member of the
> party.  Bar none.  Given the
> > choice, I'd rather have Alturo on my
> side than anyone else.  He has more
> > options than any other character in
> the group, and always seems to have
> > an out for any situaiton.  With the
> absence of a mage, Alturo seems to
> > be our magical muscle.  At the same
> time, he also does more healing than
> > anyone in the party.  Alturo fufills
> so many different party functions
> > it is amazing.  He rarely gets badly
> hurt, and he is everywhere he needs
> > to be.  Yet we treat him like a
> joke.  Go figure.
> >
> >     Neiris (6) would make a great
> leader, except for two reasons.  The
> > first is the fact that he doesn't
> want the job (but then, who does?).
> > The bigger reason is that he is a
> quiet, circumpsect man who often keeps
> > his opinions to himself.  Sadly,
> that's the direct opposite of the
> > qualitiy he would need to lead the
> Sigil.
> >     Neiris probably commands more
> respect than anyone else in the
> > group.  I would say, of all the
> characters, he is the one that all of
> > the group likes and respects.  He
> knows combat well, and has a good
> > tactical sense.  He is not overly
> emotional and is certainly the most
> > stable person in the Sigil.  All of
> these combine to make him one hell
> > of a leader, except that I just don't
> think he would exert any authority
> > over the others.  He might have a
> good idea or have a sharp plan, but
> > would he tell the others and expect
> them to follow it?  No.  Besides,
> > Neiris tends to find a nice quiet
> corner in a fight, somewhere he can
> > pelt the opposition with arrows while
> remaining relatively safe.  That
> > would make it difficult for him to
> lead, as shouting orders would tend
> > to give away his position, thus
> reducing his effectiveness.
> >     I'm very happy that Matt seems to
> have taken Neiris where he wants
> > him.  In some ways though, I feel
> sorry for Neiris.  After all, when
> > Pierce left the group, Neiris took
> over as their archer, and was doing a
> > find job at it.  He had found his
> niche and was filling it.  Then Tori
> > returned, and all of a sudden Neiris
> had a rival for position of party
> > archer.  Not only that, but Neiris
> was the scout, and now Tori also
> > threatened that position.  It could
> have been a very interesting
> > position for the two of them, and an
> intense compeition could have shot
> > up.  Instead, true to the personality
> that we have come to know, Neiris
> > welcomed Tori with open arms, and
> they have proven to be very
> > complementary, making a very
> effective team.
> >
> >     Tori (7) has a lot of potential
> as a leader.  She has the tactical
> > skill, and she knows how to deploy
> forces.  She's respected (I think) as
> > a warrior, which is a big plus.  And
> she's tough as nails.  However, she
> > tends to be very emotional, often
> letting her heart steal away with her
> > common sense in battle.  Her
> overwhelming hatred of her chosen foes,
> > along with her intense hatred of
> Kage, make her a little unstable, and
> > prone to making decisions that may
> not be thought out.  She would make a
> > good leader, but she could lead the
> party to disaster if she can't keep
> > a tighter rein on her feelings.  No
> matter if she leads or not, I think
> > it's obvious Tori will always play a
> large role in organizing the group
> > for a fight.  She's certainly never
> been shy about speaking her mind,
> > and since her ideas are often
> excellent, any good leader is going to
> > listen to them.  However, she is also
> incredibly independant, which
> > could be a large problem for any
> leader.  Perhaps taking over the group
> > would help to curb her impulse to go
> running off on her own.
> >     Tori continues to be a strong
> forve in the party.  She has one of
> > the strongest personalities, and is
> always involved in most any
> > discussion.  The animosity between
> her and Kage make for some tense
> > party meetings, and I'm curious where
> it's going to go.  It seems to be
> > too big to simply fade away.  I
> believe it must either explode into open
> > combat, or something will happen to
> force the two of them to admit their
> > differences, and work as allies.
> Last night they agreed on a course of
> > action, which was great.  As I've
> said before, their biggest priblem is
> > that they are too alike and we
> finally got to witness that.
> >
> >     Ivan (8) has a lot of potential
> to be a leader, and probably would
> > get the job if the party knew him
> better.  Just being a paladin gives
> > him some bonus points.  They tend to
> exude confidence and trust and
> > people react well to that.  His
> leadership could boost morale and keep
> > the party in good spirits, perhaps
> diffusing some of the tension they
> > have seen of late.  The only problems
> he has are a lack of knowledge of
> > the group (he doesn't really know
> them well, or their capabilities) and
> > a rather simplistic world view.  He
> seems to see things in terms of
> > black and white, as many paladins do,
> which could result in the group
> > being led to fight evil that they
> should just leave alone.  Still, there
> > is more potential in Ivan than in
> most of the rest of the group.
> >     We really haven't had the
> opportunity to see Ivan in combat, and
> I'm
> > anxious to do so.  Most of the fights
> he has been in have seen him stuck
> > in a bubble until the fight was
> mostly over, and last night consisted of
> > mostly distance attacks, which Ivan
> lacks.  I think he will be a most
> > effective cpombatant when he gets a
> chance to strut his stuff.  However,
> > the great thing about Ivan is his
> prsonality.  I love him calling Cullen
> > "boy"!  Ivan might be just what the
> party needs to become a more
> > cohesive group.
> >
> >     Cullen (9) seems to be the
> unofficial second in command of the
> > group, which is a position that he
> thinks is just fine.  He has a good
> > tactical mind, he's charismatic, he's
> liked (usually) by the people in
> > the party, and if he isn't willing to
> lead the group into combat, he has
> > an illusion of himself ready to take
> his place. The biggest problems
> > against Cullen are his emotions
> (which can run a little strong at times,
> > overwhelming his better judgment) and
> his desire not to have the job.
> > He likes working behind the scenes,
> talking with Kage and trying
> > (sometimes unsuccessfully) to give
> him his input.  At the same time,
> > Cullen is one of the people that,
> given a chance at leadership, will
> > rise to the occassion.  As I've
> mentioned, Cullen is slowly growing into
> > the role of a hero, and he could grow
> into the role of a leader, if he
> > had to.
> >     Cullen's transformation from 2nd
> edition pseudo-mage to 3rd edition
> > psuedo-fighter/thief has been
> dramatic.  Yet I almost enjoy him more
> > like this.  I never liked him this
> much when he was a junior mage; it
> > didn't fit the character.  He seems
> more like a bard than he ever did
> > before, having some skills and feats
> that fit almost any class.  He has
> > a lot of other abilities that I
> haven't played with in awhile (since the
> > party has been underground so much)
> but I hope to have the chance soon.
> >     By the way, does anyone wonder if
> there mnight not be another reason
> > Cullen flipped out at Elizabeth?  One
> has to wonder if he isn't a little
> > threatened by another actor in the
> group.  The two of them do overlap in
> > a lot of ways.
> >
> >     Kage (10) really is the best
> leader for the group.  Many of the
> > characters might disagree with me,
> and some of the players might as
> > well, but I stand by this statement.
> Kage is smart.  He knows tactics.
> > He's creative and thinks quickly.  He
> is willing to stand in the thick
> > of combat with the troops.  He isn't
> burdened by too many emotions, and
> > his decisions are more likely to be
> predicated on logic.  He is somewhat
> > overly focused on his goals (to
> avenge himself on the phaerimm), but he
> > needs the party alive for that, so
> his focus shifts to keeping them
> > alive.   He isn't always well liked,
> but he doesn't care, and I'm not
> > sure that it's important in his case.
> >     Kage possesses one thing in
> spades that every leader needs;
> > personality.  Usually I say that it's
> helpful to have a high charisma to
> > be a leader, but in Kage's case, I
> think the strength of his personality
> > more than compensates.  An example of
> Kage's personality is easy to come
> > by.  Let's be honest.  Who forgets
> that Kage can even cast spells?
> > Seriously, when was the last time he
> did.  He's almost as powerful as
> > Alturo, yet he rarely deigns to cast
> anything.  Instead, he simply wades
> > into a fight, swinging and throwing
> his axe and staring the enemies into
> > submissions.  It's quite impressive.
> >     Kage continues to be the driving
> force behgind the party, even when
> > he isn't leading it.  In the end, all
> of their recent problems still
> > stem from his actions, and he still
> pushes the party where he wants it
> > to go.  Kage has problems with some
> of the members; his problems with
> > Tori have already been mentioned, and
> he argues with Cullen quite a
> > bit.  He isn't on very good relations
> with Alturo, and Elizabeth is
> > afraid of him.  But he continues to
> be the most important character in
> > the group, and the perfect leader.
> >
> >
> >
> >


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