Willow, your comments make a lot of sense. When I worked in Finland, the Finns
mentioned they joined the Germans because they had been fighting the Russians
in the Russo-Finnish War of 1939 -1940. A very complicated region.
Malcolm
________________________________
From: dsp-ea-general-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <dsp-ea-general-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Willow Arune <walittleboots9@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 6:33 PM
To: dsp-ea-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <dsp-ea-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Controversial comment
Bob,
There are several readable histories of the Ukraine. I enjoyed the Gates of
Europe bySerhii Plokhy. It is a recent publication. Anne Applebaum wrote the
best book on the Holodormo.
Almost totally ignored in our history is the surveillance of Ukrainians by the
RCMP. Prior to WW2, many Ukrainians both in Canada and in the Ukraine were
dismayed by Stalin’s evil and thought that Germany was the only force that
might help them to gain independence. This was before the world knew of
Hitler’s racial policies. When war came, both the FBI and RCMP thought all
Ukrainians were Nazi sympathizers. That changed a bit when The Germans
attacked the USSR. Now the Reds were on our side and now the Ukrainians were
all thought to be Communists. The Gozenko Affair in Canada was the spark that
started the Cold War. During the Cold War, the RCMP continued surveillance up
to the early 1960s.
Another little tale. During WW1, some Ukrainians that came from AustroHungary
were rounded up and became prisoners. One place they were kept was near Banff.
Work parties of these Ukrainians made the distinctive signs that still dot the
Park.
The conversation you wrote about sounds wonderful!
I must note that your comment about Russians being in the majority in some
areas should not be a reason to invade and capture. Parts of Czechoslovakia -
the Suddatenland - were mostly German and we know what happened after France,
Britain, and others forced the Czechs to give it to Germany (the Czechs had
been wary of Hitler and had built very good defences in case he came calling.
Unhappily, almost all of these were in Suddatenland).
As you may remember I am a history buff, a depository of little known and
generally useless tales from history.
Willow
On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 9:33 AM Bob Thomlinson
<bthomlinson@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:bthomlinson@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote
As I sit here in Canada I can't really imagine any justifiable excuse for some
foreign country to try to carve off part of my country. However I am reminded
that the borders of Canada were not all set at the same time and had to be
negotiated over time. When we were in California for the winter we were
reminded that Mexico could conceivably claim they got a bad deal in selling, or
succeeding large areas of land to the United States. Not that I would expect
Mexico to try to take California, New Mexico, etc. back by force.
This winter we had a dinner party with two couples where both the men were of
Ukrainian origin. Peter (my age) was born in Canada but his parents emigrated
after WW2. George (now 80 years old) was born in the Ukraine and his parents
also emigrated about the same time. George still has family alive in the
Ukraine. Both fellows knew each other, from playing golf, but they had never
talked openly about their common heritage or what was happening in the Ukraine.
It was a very interesting and animated discussion, although the rest of us
mostly just listened and asked the odd question. They both talked a lot about
the history of the region and the fluid borders that got changed regularly
after various wars and other events. About 8 years ago Peter had taken his
father back on an organized tour of the Ukraine, which included places where he
had lived. They could not go to the village where Peter's father was born
because, based on the current borders, that village is now in Poland. Peter's
Dad did not find it funny when Peter told him he must be Polish now. They also
talked about the regions in the current Ukraine and the different languages
that were spoken and predominated in the different regions. The mention of
Russian being the predominate language in the Donbas region and Crimea reminded
me that we have a province that is predominately French and which continues to
express a preference to leave our Canadian federation.
What I learned that evening was how different the concept of country and
borders was in the Ukraine compared to my impressions living here and now in
Canada. I agree that Putin is not to be trusted and that the Ukraine needs the
support of the rest of the world. However I can't just dismiss the claims that
there are unilingual Russian areas that might prefer to be a part of Russia and
not remain part of a country that has been carved up and had their borders
realigned many times for many, sometimes arbitrary or expedient reasons
determined by other nations.
Cheers,
Bob T
-----Original Message-----
From:
dsp-ea-general-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dsp-ea-general-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<dsp-ea-general-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dsp-ea-general-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
On Behalf Of R Bryan Waller ("margit.waller1")
Sent: May 7, 2022 9:18 PM
To: dsp-ea-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dsp-ea-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Controversial comment
I have huge admiration for the tenacity and bravery of the Ukrainian forces and
President Zelensky in particular.The war has become a proxy battle between
Russia and most of the free world.It saddens me that so much rests on the
shoulders of that brave nation.We all must do whatever we can to help defeat
that madman Putin.Most Russians support the war as they view it through the
twisted lens of a totally controlled media.The sanctions have had little effect
to date and they should be ratcheted up until Russia lies in shambles.The only
thing that will shake the resolve of the Kremlin is body bags,lots of Russian
body bags.Bryan
Sent from my iPad
On May 8, 2022, at 3:13 AM, John Wellar
<jwellaroz@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jwellaroz@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
G'day guys
Some good comments. We in Oz have been supporting Ukraine with military
equipment and other stuff as we should.
As to the bragging that is I expect more for the US domestic politics and
midterm elections. Within the military/spy world Russia would know exactly
who is supporting Ukraine with intelligence. The intelligence community has
their own way of communicating and back channels. When I used to do that
evil thing called work, I dealt a lot with the secret squirrels.
Putin has completely miscalculated and I guess no one dared to comment on the
Emperor's new clothes.
YITBOS
John Wellar
