On the question for help with the shetland pony pair and the accident there: I think it's probably really much the same as with the mini pair. Some of you good people don't take minis or ponies seriously enough. Just because they are smaller you think you can muscle them. You can't! Often you get away with it for a while, but ultimately it catches up with you and they need the same amount of training and expertise on your part as a driver as large horses. On the pony pair: Your first sign of trouble was when you said they were a bit strong! So, if they are "a bit strong" that's your first indication that something is wrong, and instead of just driving them " a bit strong" which you think you can get away with ponies or minis, you should stop right there and re think your training program. Why are they "a bit strong" and what can we do to change that? Go back to square one and start all over again. You MUST be able to get your horses, ponies, minis to be RELAXED! Do a lot of WALKING. (I wrote long articles on the subject for example in the magazine Carriage Driving World, and won't repeat it all here now, but that's the key to it, RELAXATION). So, as you went along, them being "a bit strong" and you muscling them, I can only assume, that finally the pressure in their mouth became so strong, and they so painful that they were looking for another way to relieve that pressure, first they eased off, but then they started to lean away and off the pole, they tried to evade the pressure, to change something of this unpleasant experience where they did not know how to get out of it, and then finally one did the bucking. Hey, hello, folks if they are "strong" running against your hand, something is wrong, something is very unpleasant for the horse, you MUST change something, so that it is pleasant for everybody. They must learn their work, and so must you to be able to drive in comfort for everybody. So after RELAXATION, next item on the agenda is driving them STRAIGHT (not leaning off the pole) and we have talked about that before. Drive at the walk, relaxed, and go STRAIGHT. Only when you can do that, then start working with LARGE circles, working the inside horse, and get him to BEND properly. Sorry, folks, but there is no way around it, if you want to drive properly and accident free, you MUST learn the basics of the ugly word "dressage" and train the horses accordingly. And I can't give you all of that in just one simple post here. But also there, I'm working on a series in Carriage Driving World, explaining the German Training Scale (But skipped the next sequence in the Dec issue- sorry-, but will pick up again in the Feb issue). Ok, so some food for thought above, and sorry, but there are no shortcuts, or at least I don't know of any. (And sorry, Laurie, if you just joined the list and I come down on this now, I hope I don't scare you off right away, that's not the intention here, but I have read and seen so much lately of similar problems, so do stay with us and we'll help you along, I promise, and I write this not only for you, but for the general readership out there too) Re-reading the original post, perhaps there were also other things happening: When they pulled away from the pole, you said, you were going downhill. Perhaps you did not have or use a brake properly and the carriage put pressure on them as they tried to hold back? You said, you could not keep contact on both sides of their mouths. Well, you need to drive them STRAIGHT, if they pull away from the pole, use the whip on the outside to bring them to the pole (not beating them, the whip as an aid only), see above, they need to be RELAXED and STRAIGHT, but you need to train that at home before going on an organized outing. And when the leg got over the pole and trace, I can only assume and hope that you tried to stop right away, but couldn't, as they went on, although that is not clear from your post. But here again too, if you couldn't stop them right away, that is another sign that something is wrong in the training program or in the equipment (bits) you are using. You MUST be able to stop anytime, and dragging on for 10 feet with one pony on the ground is really unacceptable. The pole too long, as you assume, cannot be an issue here, that would not be a problem. Now on the positive side, all you did after the accident was very good, congratulations on that. Also, I do give you credit for your single work and that the ponies did have some experience single as well as in the pair. That's good, but as you say, you are green as a pair driver. Perhaps take some lessons from an experienced pair driver. It's hard to learn all this stuff without a good teacher. And I also congratulate you on asking the questions and seeing your own limitations. That's very good too and with that I think you are on the right route. Do take some pairs driving lessons from a good teacher. Happy Thaksgiving to all. Hardy (not wanting to discourage anybody, quite the contrary, just trying to help getting you in the right direcion) _________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to: http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````