[drivingpairs] Re: (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
- From: "AConnors" <aconnors@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:16:00 -0500
This is driving related?
> I am pleased to announce that I have joined my brother
> in our new company - FOSTER REAL ESTATE SERVICES. I
> still concentrate on residential real estate and
> Murray handles the commercial market. We look forward
> to assisting with your real estate needs in the
> future! My phone number is still (901)335-2403 and my
> new e-mail address is afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew L. Foster
> Foster Real Estate Services
> 1770 Kirby Parkway #109
> Memphis TN 38138
>
>
>
>
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> Subject: drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
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> drivingpairs Digest Wed, 05 Feb 2003 Volume: 02 Issue: 031
>
> In This Issue:
> [drivingpairs] Re: Stallion Pairs
> [drivingpairs] Re: stallion pairs??
> [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
> [drivingpairs] Stallion Use-long
> [drivingpairs] Calender-Breast Collar
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:19:43 -0500
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
> From: Robyn Cuffey <robyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> My Eagle has a steel pole that pins to the carriage but hangs on a
> spring to adjust the height. It has a crab (SP?) end that pulls the neck
> straps sideways from the collars. I was told this is a drop pole because
> it can be released on to the ground. I have always been concerned about
> it pulling the horses sideways. Whenever I go to clinics or talk to more
> experienced pair drivers they tell me to keep my pole straps VERY short
> but that pulls more sideways. How do you prevent the horses from going
> crooked or prevent rubs on their shoulders. I am hoping to do
> competitive driving this summer and am already concerned about rubs. The
> spring does allow the pole to bounce
> and I would think that could sore up the top of their necks. It actually
> bounces more when they walk.
>
> My first down the road pair experience was with an old wooden drop pole
> with a yoke. (only my second time driving pair) 50 yards from my
> driveway one horse started to turn, the yoke "ring" broke (it was old
> and the safety strap was torn) and down it went. All would have been
> well if I had pulled back on both reins but I thought I should stop the
> turning horse by pulling the rein on that side and I managed to pull the
> off horse so sideways he fell over the pole in a heap in the road. Not
> good. Since then I have avoided any leather attachment setup.
> Robyn
> On Sunday, February 2, 2003, at 01:03 PM, kathy robertson wrote:
>
> >
> > I am going to say no to converting your present pole.
> >
> > There are three general classes of neck yoke poles.
> > Each works on the same principles, a yoke between
> > horses, but poles are NOT interchangable between the
> > styles of yokes.
> >
> > The first is the marathon pole for marathon vehicles.
> > Usually spring loaded to carry itself on the front of
> > vehicle. No weight on horses necks. Short pole made
> > of metal tubing, so yoke ends at horses chest.
> > Nothing sticking beyond the pole. Fits MODERN
> > vehicles, usually mostly metal ones.
> >
> > Second is the drop pole used on buggies. Very light,
> > and pretty long. This is the one used with light
> > weight, American vehicles, buggy types, surreys. Name
> > comes from being able to drop to the ground when not
> > harnessed. Yoke must hold pole up when driving. Pole
> > fastened to vehicle front with bolt, clip pins, which
> > allow an up and down motion for horse movement and
> > gentle hills in a road. Yoke leather tab slides over
> > the end of pole. Pole end has a cap with a raised
> > collar about 10" back to prevent yoke from running up
> > the pole. Pole should have a safety strap to fasten
> > around yoke. Strap is to prevent yoke from falling
> > off the end, by accident. Yoke should stay on until
> > safety strap is unfastened! Pole is longer than a
> > marathon pole would be, plus extra length beyond the
> > yoke. This allows horses to be hitched comfortably,
> > not tightly but not very loose either. Traces should
> > be tight before pushing yoke. Bigger horses would
> > need longer pole to not kick vehicle when trotting
> > fast. Yoke attachment plus straps to collar, will
> > allow more slack/play, than marathon yoke clips. I
> > would recommend using neck collars, not breast collars
> > for this kind of yoke. The horses will have to
> > support the pole weight the whole time they are
> > hitched. A neck collar is wider to spread load on a
> > bigger neck area. Evener with singletrees is how
> > traces attach at vehicle.
> >
> > Third type of neck yoke is the draft horse hitch,
> > usually seen on big wagons. That neck yoke is large,
> > thick with a big metal ring to fit over the heavy
> > dropped pole used on wagons. Pole end sticks out of
> > neck yoke ring a fair length, to prevent yoke coming
> > off by accident. There is a stopper on the bottom of
> > pole to prevent yoke running up the pole. Extra
> > length of pole gives horses control of vehicle as well
> > as preventing accidental yoke coming off. Draft horse
> > style hitching is usually pretty loose, since they
> > have a long time in harness. Don't want to sore the
> > horse, but does give more room before horses and yoke
> > get in draft. Extra pole length beyond yoke stopper
> > is REALLY needed. Also may be used to put more horses
> > out front, like a four or six, so additional divider
> > pole and eveners would be hung off the pole's end on
> > wagon. Again, neck collars are recommended. Wagon
> > poles are VERY heavy. Pole weight is on horse necks
> > the whole time horses are hitched.
> >
> > Both the dropped pole and wagon poles must have extra
> > pole length beyond yoke or safety strap to prevent
> > yoke from coming off. Too long of traces allow horses
> > out too far. They can push yoke off the end of pole.
> > Removing the yoke will allow the pole to DROP
> > instantly. It WILL spear into the ground, stopping
> > vehicle, usually creating a bad accident, since horse
> > have NOT stopped. Pole might slide on pavement. I
> > don't want to picture it!
> >
> > Fixed polesstick out the front of vehicle, no give,
> > hold themselves up in front of vehicle, use pole heads
> > with rings for straps or chains. These do not change
> > into any other kind of pole. Vehicle must first be
> > suitable for a yoke style pole. Fixed poles are
> > HEAVY, THICK, because horses use the long pole to
> > control the vehicle (usually heavier than a buggy) for
> > turns, stopping. Fixed pole should stick out past
> > horses heads to lessen the angle of pull sideways.
> > Long pole makes strap to chest almost staight ahead.
> > Horses stopping, are almost straight back, in their
> > push against the breeching and pole straps of chest
> > connection. Martingales ARE recommended. There is a
> > mathmatical formula for length of fixed pole and horse
> > size, to get the best use of animals. A size table is
> > posted at the ADS site.
> >
> > Perhaps you can post some pictures. We are better
> > able to advise, when we see what you are working with.
> > However if vehicle has got a fixed pole, it probably
> > won't change well. Body designed to work a certain
> > way. Many vehicles available with other pole
> > attachments, that might suit you better, if you wish
> > to change. Perhaps someone local can let you see a
> > drop pole, modern or marathon vehicle in action. Each
> > style has good and bad. You may dislike them after
> > seeing them in use!
> >
> > Kathy Robertson
> >
> >> Those of you who use a yoke on your pole - that
> >> seems like a good idea. My pole
> >> now has the loops right on the end. I looked in the
> >> Witmer catalog and saw 3
> >> yokes. They all seem to have a little leather tab
> >> with a hole in it as the
> >> center element. Can I just take the crab off my
> >> (wooden)pole and attach the
> >> yoke? What kind of hardware do you need to attach
> >> the leather tab to the pole?
> >> Neither my husband nor I are all that experienced
> >> with driving a pair, but he
> >> is an engineer and _very_ good at making stuff. I
> >> did get a very good reminder
> >> to have some safety backup keeping the yoke on the
> >> pole - that certainly seems
> >> like a good idea.
> >> Stephanie
> >> Blasted Rock Farm
> >> Naples, NY
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 22:44:24 -0500
> >> From: dogsnponies@xxxxxx
> >> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Marathon yoke
> >>
> >>
> >> My old boyfriend made me one using a spare
> >> swingletree from the carraige. Took a little
> >> ingenuity and a few trips to the hardware/auto parts
> >> store. They don't come cheap from the manufacturers
> >> and unless you are ordering it on the pole to begin
> >> with- even worse. I have a very clever metal
> >> fabricator here in NJ that helps me with a lot of
> >> modifications.
> >> Tracey
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> End of drivingpairs Digest V2 #27
> >> *********************************
> >>
> > _________________________________________________________
> >> To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go
> >> to:
> >> http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:47:27 -0800 (PST)
> From: JLO <cicera65@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Stallion Pairs
>
>
> Well, I've trained many a mini. That is a WHOLE other world. They are
> not nearly the same as two 1000 lb Cob stallions or even my two 600
> lb section A's. My boys are NEVER allowed to behave badly. They can
> display a bit of excitment while breeding, but not in any other
> circumstance. We plan to put a ton of mileage on Comet before we ever
> even think about pairing him. Louie, his potential partner, is only 2
> now, so in my opinion he will not be broke for another year. I feel
> it is a criminal act to start younger than three. I know that is a
> very personal decision, but for me it would literally keep me up
> nights worrying what I was doing to his future soundness.
>
> Same situation for the Section A team. Dude is being started now (age
> 5), Gator is a year away from even thinking about being hooked.
>
> Just wanted to know if there were any crazies out there doing this
> with the bigger boys. Both our pairs will be salt and pepper. Each
> team will have a black pony. The other half of the teams will be
> lighter in color. One Buckskin and one Chestnut. Oh and we will need
> navigators for both teams LOL
>
> Jodi in Morriston FL...who can never be a navigator under any
circumstances.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Don Hayes family" <djthayes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: stallion pairs??
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:56:16 -0600
>
>
> Well, no, I haven't personally driven any stallions, in any combinations.
> However, the same things apply as with any other combination you want to
> drive together in any type of multiple. That is: Are they good single? Do
> they generally get along in other situations? When handling them in ANY
> situation, are YOU in charge? I don't think it matters what size or breed
> they are, some will do fine and some will never work. This is no different
> than a combination of any gender. Some will work, and some won't. If you
> don't feel that you can judge for yourself, get a trainer to help you
decide
> if the ones you choose will indeed work the way you desire. A good trainer
> should be able to evaluate them for you for the price of 1 or 2 lessons.
> Cheap enough to prevent a disaster.
> Don
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JLO" <cicera65@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:15 AM
> Subject: [drivingpairs] stallion pairs??
>
>
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone has ever driven a pair of stallions?? We
> > have two potential pairs of stallions in our future. So far we have
> > one of each pair in training. Comet our senior stallion already
> > drives and we have a buckskin Cob up and coming that we would love to
> > pair with him. I have Dude, our Section A, well on his way to being
> > driven and would just love to pair him with Gator, our coming 2yr old
> > Section A, some day in the not too distant future.
> >
> > Can anyone tell me if the has been done? There are times I think it's
> > a fabulous idea and then times I think that Russ and I have lost our
> > minds. They would look SPECTACULAR!!!
> >
> > Jodi in Morriston FL
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
> > http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> > `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Don Hayes family" <djthayes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:45:25 -0600
>
>
> This is exactly why I don't like the leather attachment for a neck yoke.
> More modern, and safer, attachments are available. I do have an old
"buggy"
> yoke that has a metal "ring" that replaces the leather piece. It is about
an
> inch or so wide, fastens to a similar ring on the yoke with a swivel, and
is
> (well, was) lined with leather where is slides onto the pole end. I don't
> know if these are being made by anyone anymore or not. I don't remember
> seeing any in the catalogs that we get. These certainly look a lot safer
to
> me than the leather flap with a hole in it!
> Don
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robyn Cuffey" <robyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > My first down the road pair experience was with an old wooden drop pole
> > with a yoke. (only my second time driving pair) 50 yards from my
> > driveway one horse started to turn, the yoke "ring" broke (it was old
> > and the safety strap was torn) and down it went. All would have been
> > well if I had pulled back on both reins but I thought I should stop the
> > turning horse by pulling the rein on that side and I managed to pull the
> > off horse so sideways he fell over the pole in a heap in the road. Not
> > good. Since then I have avoided any leather attachment setup.
> > Robyn
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:04:50 -0800 (PST)
> From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Stallion Use-long
>
>
> First, let me say there are many wonderful stallions
> out in the performance world, doing their best work,
> with skillful handlers. That said, all stallions are
> not equal in temperment, or current temptations to act
> like a stallion, so there are badly behaved stallions
> who show up also.
>
> Stallion's first thought is breeding, and that must be
> kept in mind at ALL times, in EVERY situation. You
> can not control the surroundings of every place you
> take him. WE MARE OWNERS are not going to be real
> considerate of him reacting to our mares in season.
> Even if we are so stupid as to stop right beside him
> or parade by him with tail in the air. It is always
> going to be HIS fault for reacting. Harnessed, he has
> to be no reaction, despite provocation!!!
>
> Stallions I have seen being used, are as single
> stallion in a pair or team. Stallions used as a
> working horse are SELDOM/NEVER being bred during work
> season. This means the WHOLE show season. Seems to
> be part of the group thinking deal. You work when
> with other horses, don't breed them. European stud
> farms often have stallion hitches. However they are
> not competing breeding stallions, and often do not get
> the stallions out into group things like shows. Just
> use the hitches as work training for young stallions.
> They are more strict on evaluation of horse and a
> little more age, before breeding.
>
> Stallions are competitive about breeding, and will
> often fight or attempt to fight, with another stallion
> or strong gelding, they perceive as trying to infringe
> on territory or mares. Spring and summer, show
> season,
> is high hormone time. Stallions being bred, are much
> more ready to react, strongly, than non-breeding
> stallions. Non-breeding, never been bred, stallions
> react also, just usually have a little longer fuse.
> They just get thinking of other things, and handler is
> often way down the list, whether at home or away. It
> is the nature of the beast, even good training is not
> fail safe, though usually sufficient.
>
> I don't know of any people driving pairs of stallions.
> Some mixed pairs, often draft horses. Kennebec Count
> is the most famous stallion driven, in mixed pairs, of
> gelding and mare, partners. Don't know if the mare
> was given any hormone treatment, as is common today,
> was a long time ago. Count got super training,
> experienced handlers for his varied exposure to
> situations. Wonderful mind on the horse. Still,
> there was only ONE stallion to deal with if problem
> came up.
>
> You don't say if young horses are stallions or
> geldings, so I am presuming stallion, since you said
> stallion pair. I would think that driving the two
> stallions as a pair is possible. However you would be
> better/safer? if one was gelded. Or if young horse
> was never bred, to reduce competitive side. Less
> horses to watch for reactions. However I am also
> thinking you will wish to breed young horse or he
> would be gelded. Older horse still may not like him
> as a stallion. Some stallions hate each other.
> I know you are in Florida, do horses show seasonal
> changes with shorter days?
> We have seen the best luck with colts, starting
> things in late fall, short day light. Hormones are
> way down, less argument, silliness. Stallions pay
> attention better. Our stallion, broke and trained,
> came from a Canadian ranch. They put the colt
> training as the regular fall program. They ride/work
> the 4 year olds daily, all genders and horses are
> ready for logging training when the snow falls. This
> is daily handling, horses get 1/2 day use, get tired.
> Change horses for afternoon work. Short northern days.
> No stallions bred until six. Not going to breed
> brainless horses, must be trainable before breeding.
> Five year olds are the summer work horses. Some don't
> make stallions, getting cut for geldings. Any of the
> stallion band was usable, before being given a herd.
> Hard to replicate that kind of training without a
> large ranch and hired help. Our stallion drove well
> with his gelding companion. When we drove him he was
> not being used as a breeding stallion. Big tough,
> gelding lived with him all the time, and accepted 2nd
> place in herd of two. Gelding was reliable and would
> do as told even if stallion was distracted. VERY
> IMPORTANT to have one listening horse. We gelded the
> stallion and had a NICE pair of geldings. No real
> use to us as a breeding horse, we are not breeders.
> Though he had bred mares, thought well of himself, was
> a nice, easy-to-live-with stallion. I think it helped
> a lot that he had a companion. Was used to being a
> herd horse.
> I think it is an interesting idea driving a pair of
> stallions, but see a lot of drawbacks. I don't think
> it is something I would want to do.
> A mixed pair would be safer, only one to watch hard,
> particularly since you are inexperienced. I would
> think getting older stallion, pair trained, going
> with someone reliable first, would be the next step to
> look at. Maybe there is a quiet gelding you could
> rent as a pair schoolmaster? Younger horse would be
> very confused, no help at all. Putting together two
> horses, inexperienced in pairs, is a BAD thing!!
> Between pair ignorant, young horse and shorter fused
> older horse (stallions ARE sensitive), add stallion
> competition, pair sounds dangerous, approached this
> way.
> If you desperatly want a pair to show off both
> stallions, geld the younger horses. Get the younger
> horses broke to drive, each trained to a pair, with
> schoolmaster horse. Do you have pair trained mares for
> schooling geldings? Then geldings all trained,
> knowledgable, can be put with stallion in pair. Both
> horses are able to understand the job and work with
> you and partner horse. No reason for horses to be
> upset, except that each is new to being with this
> partner. Stalling beside each other can reduce that
> newness also. You want all the factors for success to
> be on your side, so everyone comes out winners.
> Multiples can go to pieces in a heartbeat, just mares
> and geldings. Asking stallions, you have to be
> EXTREMELY well prepared for the task.
> I would also go for lessons in pair handling. For
> what you plan, this should be a MUST DO. Continental
> Acres has trainers. Larry Poulin and Sterling Graburn
> are available in Florida. Both VERY good multiples
> drivers. They would show you rein adjustments, rein
> handling, hitching, things that have never crossed
> your mind, with pairs. This preparation is NEEDED
> even if you only want to drive down the road, never
> show. Even the very best stallion, is a different
> game than a mare or gelding. It takes skill and
> training to make a good driving horse. Sounds like
> your stallion has the basics, just have to build on
> them. Breeding and working stallion, can often be
> done, but not if you make it too complicated, getting
> him too frustrated to listen.
>
> Let us know how it goes, if you pursue the pair idea.
> It will be a long-term goal.
>
> Kathy Robertson
>
>
> > I was wondering if anyone has ever driven a pair of
> > stallions?? We
> > have two potential pairs of stallions in our future.
> > So far we have
> > one of each pair in training. Comet our senior
> > stallion already
> > drives and we have a buckskin Cob up and coming that
> > we would love to
> > pair with him. I have Dude, our Section A, well on
> > his way to being
> > driven and would just love to pair him with Gator,
> > our coming 2yr old
> > Section A, some day in the not too distant future.
> >
> > Can anyone tell me if the has been done? There are
> > times I think it's
> > a fabulous idea and then times I think that Russ and
> > I have lost our
> > minds. They would look SPECTACULAR!!!
> >
> > Jodi in Morriston FL
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:31:55 -0800 (PST)
> From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Calender-Breast Collar
>
>
> If you check out the September picture of the pair,
> the breast collars show off-set rings, on pole head
> marathon vehicle. Having them even more off-set,
> would reduce the pulling sideways, but need bigger
> chested animals. You don't want ring on point of
> shoulder.
> I still think you need length, on pole/pole head,
> for vehicle control. That gets it beyond horse chest,
> for tight (marathon vehicle) turns. Horses can lift
> heads for clearance, not the pole end. For US, the
> yoke works better. Short pole with straight pull, no
> sideways pulling, centered chest ring attachments. We
> do have off-set rings on Tedman leader harness, to use
> with traditional carriage pole head. Works fine even
> though that is a long pole, when driving dressage
> carriage.
> In true, built-for-pair marathon harness, the
> shoulder strap is very wide. Our big horses have
> almost 4" shoulder strap. Not the same as a converted
> single harness to pair. The neck strap also has a
> support strap that comes around lower neck, to hold up
> the front of the heavy padded breast collar. Visible
> in picture, but loose with pole up. This harness has
> off-set support strap, with only one ring on chest.
> Our neck support strap is centered to hang on chest,
> with one center ring on wheelers, and run thru both
> leaders (we have two rings, right and left on both
> leaders) offset rings, so coupler strap doesn't pull
> breastcollars down. Yoke works with off-set rings
> too. WE just wanted centered rings, we think they are
> better for US. Many designs available.
>
> I think September, Calendar girl Tracy posted above,
> on pole heads. My take on Bellcrown's UK higher sales
> of pole heads, over yokes, is training. There are a
> LOT of traditionally trained drivers, trainers of
> drivers, who also do Pleasure Carriages and CDE.
> Began training in nice carriages, with pole heads, so
> they buy the same thing when getting a marathon
> vehicle. Yokes are not commonly seen in UK except on
> drafts. Can be stuck in thinking because of training
> ideas, how you were taught. Yokes are draft thing,
> not CDE!
>
> More U.S. drivers, start with cart for fun, find
> driving clubs. Get exposed to buggy pairs, drafts,
> before CDE. Makes it easier to see the efficiency of
> harnessing system. Less of traditional, pole head,
> carriage driving exposure. Also yoke is more common,
> any style, in the U.S. U.S. drivers are quite willing
> to try new things.
> Using a yoke with a team of four is unusual, but we
> have been happy with it, horses move well. Little
> more work to hitch, planning pole springing,
> clearances. This is where do-it-yourself is VERY
> handy. Husband considers it a training challange.
> Horses stay sounder when moving straight, not pulled
> sideways. Happy horses are less challenge in other
> parts of training.
>
> If your pole is moving A LOT, it may need adjusting or
> change. We started with a Warco pair marathon
> vehicle.
> Springs are flat, broke easily with certain movements.
> Got an evaluation of spring metal and changed the
> hardness, setting of height for pole to carry itself.
> Had several extra sets made for spares. Made the pole
> ride steadier, carries yoke weight but still moves
> easily. Taught us a lot, fixing this problem.
> Springs on used vehicle may be tired, worn, partially
> broke?, set for smaller animals. Evaluate what can be
> changed. What results do you want? Yoke ends can be
> made locally, just attached to pole end. Use quality
> metal, EXPENSIVE snap shackle fasteners for quick
> release. Quality is more dependable for wear. Make
> any rings, loops, large, to prevent binding of harness
> or snap shackle removal. Aluminum yoke not
> recommended, fractures easily. Pad yoke and pole so
> horses are not bruised.
>
> Pole should carry itself easily, sideways pull is
> driver problem.
> Change harness system, get horses pulling better,
> moving straight, not away from pole, leaning, working
> together. Drive BOTH horses, not just the eager one.
> Move Pokey up, might relax Speedy.
> Competition driving is very different than just
> cruising down the road. Both are great, but demands
> of harness, horses, vehicle are way different. A few
> tweaks here and there can make it easier on all.
> Driving should be FUN.
>
> Kathy Robertson
>
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