[ddots-l] Re: musical thoughts
- From: "Shawn Brock" <shawn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ddots-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:54:53 -0700
Friends:
Here's how it all lays out. My thoughts are dispersed below.
The keyboard player/ programmer was contacted, and he elected to re-do most of
the work. In the end I got tracks which I have deemed useable. Without anyone
asking him, he also elected to give quite a bit of a discount off the price of
$1000. He stated that the song didn't turn out to be as much work as he had
anticipated.
One of the big problems we also dealt with was the fact that a "apprentice
engineer" was responsible for running out a MP3 of the rough mix. This fellow,
in all his glory, didn't add 2 of the keyboard tracks to the mix.
I wondered if something like that could have happened, but what are the odds
that you'll run out a track for someone to approve your work, and forget to add
your work to the track?
As I stated, I felt like I was paying a lot of money for a pad track... That's
just what was there, pads...
Never the less, it has become a win win for everyone I think.
To answer the questions, track 1 "Shawn Brock- Sunset Motel" was my keyboard
and programming.
Here are some of your thoughts and my responses. I thank you all for your
opinions and ears on this, and I'm glad I reached out to you.
Chris Smart wrote:
"Wow, a thousand dollars? Is that the cost of his input into the project, or do
you get some of that for trumpet and guitar parts?"
That was the cost of his work. The list of films and acts he works for is
endless!
"The first track sounds punchier, more dynamic, and clear, even though it is
more compressed. The drums, especially the snare or whatever passes for it,
sound snappier and sharper, and I can pick out the rhythmic pulse a lot easier
at lower volume levels. The nice nylon string guitar part is more discernable
as well, and I'm guessing that if this is used as background music, say, while
the local weather forecast scrolls across the television screen or someone
waits on hold, that the first track is more likely to get toes tapping, and its
melody more likely to lodge in the listener's mind.
So, I clearly like the first version better. If that is your version and the
second one cost $1,000, I think you don't need to outsource for keyboard parts
in future!"
Though my keyboard playing takes a lot of effort on my part, I would have to
agree with you. Even though I'm happy about it all now, happiness has come at
a cost for me.
Darren H writes:
"I've got to be honest, I preferred version 2.
I'll number what I feel is wrong with version 1...
1. The sound effects at start and end are unnecessary."
Perhaps your right. When one does an all instrumental album you tend to find
as many sound scapes as you can to reach the listener. Some folks love the
sound affects, while others see them as pointless. I'm some where in the
middle, so I'll probably keep them.
"2. The drum programming is so obviously stilted, especially the fills, I
could've done better on my old Tyros II."
Again, your probably right. Everything you hear in the first version took me
less than 1 hour to do. This is programming, playing 3 keyboard parts, putting
on 3 guitars, bass, sound affects as well as mixing and mastering. As I have
already stated, this was a demo. I would say its pretty pumping for one hour
of work for a guy who hates playing keyboards, that's where most of the hour
went... Perhaps we should talk, I may be able to use you for some programming
in the future.
"3. The mix has the guitar lead right up front, but too far up front I think,
it makes it sound grating rather than sweet and melodious."
Again... As stated when I started this thread, rough mixes, and scratch
guitars. No point in talking about the mix just yet...
"On saying that, version 2 did sound a lot like a keyboard arranger demo track
and the actual sound of the drums didn't sit well in the mix.
I don't think either one is $1000 more improved than the other."
I was a little partial to my work. Perhaps now you see why. Like I said, it
took me an hour.
Steve W writes:
"Sunset Hotel 2 has a lovely feel to it. It's hard to just listen to a peace
of music on this forum as the autopsy diagnostic Ear switches on and the beauty
of the music gets lost in the technical investigation."
Boy aint that the truth.
"I tried not to guess what instruments or softsynths were used, just listened
to the song and how it made me feel.
The other version of Sunset Hotel, I thought lacked emotion, although I did
like the Waves at the beginning, the funky bass guitar and electric piano parts.
Regarding the fee, $1000 isn't bad when you think of the Hours it takes.
The thing you have to remember here is everyone on this list will hear both
tracks and give you different opinions as both tracks are good in different
ways."
You nailed it again!
"Take the George Michael song "Careless Whisper" when I was a Kid, I thought
that was the most beautiful song I'd ever heard. I even loved the string sound,
yes that god awful string sound. I still don't think "Careless Whisper" would
sound better with a different string sound, I guess it's good he couldn't in
the day put the song up on a forum like this? lol
Regarding Sunset Hotel 2, The sweet strings, the overall feel on the song plus
the fact no instruments were competing with the guitar is why I liked that
version more.
I'd personally just put the Waves and all the atmosphere on the front of Sunset
Hotel 2."
That's what we'll be doing. We will have an extra Rhodes part in it as well.
Tim Burgess writes:
"What brief did you give to the session guy? If you're not happy with what
he's done, which is the gist of your mail, we need to understand why you're not
happy."
I had told him to stick with something in the vane of my demo, but to feel free
to dress it up and be more intricate.
"I couldn't say that I liked one version over the other, though the sound
effects didn't really float my boat but then that's not my call, as it's your
project.
Presumably you hired this guy to add something that you didn't think you could
do yourself, so how did you express this to him? I assume you were pretty
specific if you're paying high-end session fees."
More or less I paid for a name... He knows and understands the format quite
well, and he's quite a talented player. Life gets hard, and sounds and ideas
tend to repeat themselves when you are playing guitar, bass, keys, writing the
tune, mixing it and programming it. I just wanted something in the ballpark of
what I had, just dressed up with new ideas and licks that I don't play.
Brandon Keith writes,
"The first one had more in it than the second one, the second one was way more
compact, so if you are going to do more stuff with it, I'd go with number 2,
but if you keep it like it is go with number one.
I personally liked number one's ending better and number 2's beginning better."
The objective was to have a track which I only had to recut the guitar, and add
trumpet.
len viljoen writes:
"well i liked the 1st version. It sounds stronger than the 2nd one but i also
don't quite like the sound effects. This is not the kind of music i specialize
in but I'd say if you paid someone big bucks to make one version sound much
better than the other one you have been robbed."
LOL, that's how I was feeling. I had used the same words!
"Other than the total sound of the keyboards and programming the playing style
didn't really change at all.
O by the way i love the guitar solo. I might contact you off list if you're
interested in doing lead guitar work for me."
You know I'm interested! I'm always interested, feel free to hit me up
anytime, and thanks for thinking of me!
Chris Smart Returns with:
"And, to the person who said the second version was more relaxing and quieter
... that's because it *IS* quieter! Drop the volume of the louder version by
about 6dB so you can make a more accurate comparison."
*grin*, Give the man a pat on the back! I'll take the blame for that one. I
just sent the files as they were, I should have probably lowered the volume of
the 2nd cut to help people make more accurate comparisons.
Again, I thank you all for your time and talent. Hopefully I'll be able to
return the favor.
Best,
Shawn
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Leishman
To: ddots-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: [ddots-l] Re: musical thoughts
Well, no one can doubt the musicianship. However, sounds like band in a
box on a good day. Track 1 “Escalator Going Up”. Track 2 “escalator Brocken
Down”. I prefer track one’s production but with track two’s guitar instead on
the track. E.G. the eq, fx etc.. Hey, but I've just been blasting out ACDC on
my guitar so what do I know!
--- On Mon, 11/10/10, Chris Smart <chris_s@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Chris Smart <chris_s@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ddots-l] Re: musical thoughts
To: ddots-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Monday, 11 October, 2010, 17:28
And, to the person who said the second version was more relaxing and
quieter ... that's because it *IS* quieter! Drop the volume of the louder
version by about 6dB so you can make a more accurate comparison.
Personally, the second version sounds like a demo, with simpler
harmonies and more electronic-sounding drums and instruments.
PLEASE READ THIS FOOTER AT LEAST ONCE!
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