*thank you very much for this broad and intelligent comment on such a
sensitive and emotioanally loadded issue like the "Holocaust deniers".*
2016-02-17 14:28 GMT+02:00 douglas rankine <douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
That's OK Peter. As Oscar Wilde once said, "An apology is a recogntion of
ones failings in others"...:-) .
And this will be my last word on the matter...I promise...
Now, I took a look at those people you mentioned. The ones who are called
"holocaust deniers". There seems to be a common theme in their beliefs.
Specifically, they don't believe that a holocaust occurred before and
during the Second World War, in Germany and its occupied territories, or
that there was a specific programme created for the extermination of the
Jewish population and that concentration camps and death camps were created
for those purposes. We know of course, that concentration camps were
created for political dissidents and trades union activists, communists.
gypsies, ethnic minorities and those who opposed the philosophy, policy and
practice of the German National Socialist Democratic Party and who were
defeated on the streets after the GNSDP had taken power in the
elections...which were rigged. (though that point is moot and up for
debate by some). Later on vulnerable people were added, like physically
and/or mentally handicapped children, as the superior race and the blood
had to be kept pure and Aryian.
They, the holocaust deniers, believe that any camps that were created, of
which the were only a few, were more like holiday camps, like Butlins and
such like and that the camps were purely voluntary for Jews to go to, and
that the policy and programme was designed by the German National Socialist
Democratic Party for the safety of the Jews, some of whom were being
attacked and punished by fellow Germans, and to look after their best
interests and well-being by removing them from the scene. In researches on
any of their papers I have never seen any or should I say a few admissions
that places like Auschwitz or Buchenwauld existed, never mind the 900 or so
that were found in the clean up after the war. Neither do they admit to
any Jews being killed en masse, tortured, moved from their homes or, if it
did happen, it was only very small and only those Jews who deserved it,
suffered it. There is no recognition of the holocaust at all, it is a
figment of the Allies imagination, as far as they are concerned, and
therefore not worthy of remorse, recompense or reparations for those who
managed to survive.
All of this contradicts the evidence which was given at the Nuremberg
trials and the subsequent trials held afterwards. German National
Socialist & Democratic Party members gave evidence that in some cases such
atrocities had been carried out, but, in the few cases in which they were
involved, it was a question of them obeying orders, and that what they did
was perfectly legal, within German law, all tickety boo and above board,
that bad things happen in war; and that it was a question of the Victorious
over the Vanquished, and that it was really them who were the victims in
all this. Much evidence was gained from prison gaurds themselves, and other
people who worked at the camps, in the administration, on the trains, and
those who designed and organised the planning of, what was called...in
essence. "The Final Solution". Then, last but not least, came the most
important evidence of all, that of the victims. I think that is basically
the story. The result of Nuremberg, was the establishment of a couple of
very important principles. "The Right NOT To Obey Orders"! and the law of
humanity is a much greater and higher law than any other law of a nation
Now, where does the concept of "free speech" come into all of this? The
Holocaust Deniers are saying that their right to free speech is being
compromised, that they have the right to say anything they like, and if
they believe that the Holocaust didn't happen, then they have the right to
say so. And that to make the advocacy and the organisation of groups which
support such a policy a criminal offence is a denial of their right of free
speech. Well, it seems pretty obvious to me...that that is a load of
hogwash, but I will take the time to spell it out, and I hope that you will
bear with me, because I think it is important...for all of us.
Have you ever heard the story of William Tell? It's a piece of Swiss
folklore about a boy who had an apple put on his head and to save the
village his dad had to shoot the apple off his head without hurting his
son. He managed it and everyone was happy. Well, there was a corollary to
that story at the Nuremberg trials. There was a concentration camp gaurd
who was nicknamed William Tell (Gottfried Wiesse). He went one better.
Working in a concentration camp got really boring so he used to organise
Sunday afternoon soirrees for his camp followers, which consisted of having
a party, getting drunk and lining up Jewish prisoners and firing bullets at
the apples on top of their heads. Some say that the German NSDP wasn't
frivolous, particularly when they used to execute prisoners who complained
frivously about having no food, no freedom, being beat up by gaurds,
wanting medial attention which didn't include illegal operations etc. Of
course, the drunker they got, the worse they got at shooting, and would
kill a prisoner, "accidently" sending them off into paroxisms of laughter.
The trouble was...and this is the important bit as far as I am concerned.
Their camp gaurds' children were also present, and followed the example of
their "betters"....Down through the generations the sins of the fathers are
passed on to the sons.
And, it is for reasons like that, in my view, that many countries have
made Holocaust Denial and organising and publicising holocaust denial
groups and events unlawful. Were they right, or were they wrong? I know
where I stand, but where do you stand?
By the way Peter, I am not Jewish or a supporter of Judaism, or any
religion, or any race apart from the human race for that matter, but I do
recognise the right of the State of Israel to exist. (My, haven't I come a
long way from my youthful utopian dreams and the abolishment of the state
leading to the liberation of mankind)...:-) . And...if you have got this
far...for taking up so much of your valuable time...:-) .