[cryptome] Re: FBI v Apple Warrant; Questions of Security of the State and Privacy of the Individual

  • From: Michael Best <themikebest@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: cryptome <cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:23:44 -0500

There's definitely been a lot of progress made and a LOT can be recovered,
but there are limits (if just because of the Bekenstein bound). This is one
of those things where you might be right (as in not
misremembering/confabulating, I don't see any reason for you to make it up
on purpose lol) but I have to remain skeptical until I can examine the
source.

On a related note, do you know if DOD or any of the other
agencies/departments have changed their standards for wiping drives? Last I
remembered, DOD had it at either 7 or 10 (why the 7-10 split shows up here,
I have no idea...) passes of writing over a drive with random data to make
it "unrecoverable".

Of course, some people just toss devices into a microwave. Personally, I
prefer tossing it into a forge and melting it entirely. Paint can forges
are easy to build DIY
<http://www.instructables.com/id/Backyard-Metal-Casting-and-Homemade-Forges/>
these days (obviously caution is needed because of extreme heat) so it's a
garage or backyard project now and not gaining access to an industrial
forge or furnace.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 4:14 PM, douglas rankine <
douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Michael,
Sorry...but I can't find the research paper...I spent a lot of time today
looking but was unsuccesful...too many postings and too many entries on
Cryptome...and I haven't any method or time left to narrow the search on
Cryptome.  Anyway, for present purposes in the Apple case it is
irrelevant...perhaps you can look yourself if you have the time.

  As I said I have brought it up a couple of times, and put in a url.  It
was close to the time that GCHQ had the Guardian's hard disks and
motherboards destroyed on the premises.  It was a research paper from one
of the worlds universities.  Also, I seem to remember that flash drives
were also coming under criticism at the time due to their poor wiping
facility...seems that ssd drives are even more susceptible to retaining
information after secure wiping than ordinary hard drives.  Something to do
with the way that data is laid down on the  hard disk.  The research paper
said that the forensic software was able to strip away the digital
information layer by layer, right back to the virgin disk so to speak.
How credible the research was, I wouldn't know, as I am not a scientist.

As a matter of interest, and a slight aside,  I attended a large meeting
the other day with University of the Third Age.  We  had a Coroners
Officer, who was a qualified forensic scientist speaking and he told us how
they are now introducing CAT scanners instead of cutting dead people open
to do a post mortem.  They are so sensitive that the information derived
from the scan has been found acceptable as evidence in a court of law.
Remote sensing and analytic forensic software has come a long way over the
last few years, down to the nuons gluons and quarks, which appear to rule
the roost these days.
ATB
Dougie.



On 20/02/2016 11:45, Michael Best wrote:

Data decays and successive rewrites makes some if not all of the data
disappear. There's a limit to what can be retrieved, it doesn't stretch
back indefinitely. If there's a *credible *paper that says there is no
limit, I'd love to see it.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 5:50 AM, douglas rankine <
douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Michael
No...it isn't an overstatement.  I read a piece of research published on
cryptome some time ago which said this could be done.  I can't remember the
name of the paper, but it was in the last year or so I think.  I will have
a look for it and see if I can find it.  I do remember that did raise it on
this mailing list at the time, so perhaps I will find it that way, as I
usually give a url.  I personally don't  have the computer skills to know
whether the research was valid, or of sufficient objective quality and of
sufficiently high scientific standard, or what the limits explored were...

If you remember,  whiz kiddies used by GCHQ  went into the Guardian
Newspaper and took the computers apart and physically destroyed the hard
disks so that no one would have access to the Snowden data...I believe that
photos of the motherboard and the hard disks were published on
Cryptome...there was some discussion at the time as to why they did this,
the reasoning being that it was the only way they could assure that the
Guardian physically complied with the court order... :-)

Also, on further reading of the warrant below.  The FBI have established
that the information on the iphone involved was backed up to the cloud,
which means that information on the iphone will be available in the event
of the iphone's storage devices being destroyed.

 The back up will not be a true reflection of the iphone of course, as it
may be a little out of date. However, it does mean that the FBI will, if
what I am saying is true, be able to get access to most of the information
using their super-duper forensics and software... However, they still say
that due to the uniqueness of the software and the processes, and the fact
that it is copyright, they require the full co-operation of Apple to
produce a file which contains the necessary forensics to overcome the
non-erase featuere etc.
ATB
Dougie.


On 20/02/2016 10:09, Michael Best wrote:


On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 5:06 AM, douglas rankine <
<douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx>douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Here is a question I have posed before....never did get an answer... As
I understand it, any information can be retrieved from a digital storage
device,going right back to the time it was first used, unless it is
physically destroyed, even if it has been erased by the best of forensic
cleansing.


I think that's either an overstatement, or I misunderstand your meaning.
(If it was knowing hyperbole, then just ignore me.)


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=M+du
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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