[cryptome] Re: Do you suppose comments like this will get me on a government watchlist?

  • From: "Douglas Rankine" <douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 22:19:06 +0100

“All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so
at their peril.”

― Oscar Wilde <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3565.Oscar_Wilde> , The
Picture of Dorian Gray <http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1858012>

Gary...as a subscriber to this list, take it for granted...you are on a watch
list...loads of them. It is an open source public list, anyone with access to
a computer and the internet can read it. List subscribers who don’t post are
also on a watch list. Some watch lists are more, shall we say benign than
others. If you advocate revolution or evolution, different watch lists apply.
If you advocate anti-Semitism, or race hatred or fascism or violence or mass
action you are on another kind of watch list, some more malevolent than others.
If you advocate free speech, freedom of action and freedom of thought, or
freedom of the will, you are on another kind of list. If you advocate peaceful
uses of mass protest, or advise people of their legal rights, or organise
peaceful protest, or advocate anti-war, or equality between the sexes, you will
be on a list. Even if you don’t open your mouth, you will be on a watch list
of some kind or another.

Having said that, do you think that attacking a symbol, in this case a flag,
will somehow improve the behaviour of individuals in any society? Taking out a
symbol is easy, but how does one “take out” what lies behind it? Or, in the
alternative will it have the opposite effect? Will it, for instance polarise
people on one side of the debate or the other? Will it divert folks away from
the real problem? Like what shit is shovelled into them by their parents,
their family circles their schools, their society, their peer groups, or the
practical examples set by the representatives of their nation state?

Those poor folks who got shot because they were nice people and attending
church, got shot because they were black. According to a spokesman from the
National Rifle Association, they got shot, because the vicar refused to carry a
gun. According to the spokesman, if the vicar had been carrying a gun, he
could have shot Dylan Roof, and that would have solved the problem. Would it?
If you think the answer is yes, then there is a huge lobby who will agree with
you. If you think no, there is another huge lobby who will agree with you. In
the UK most people don’t carry guns. I personally wouldn’t like to have a gun
in my house...one is always aware that they are there and can be used for
killing or maiming people. Not that I am opposed to hunting, shooting and
fishing, apart from fox-hunting.

Dylan Roof is an individual, who, according to an alleged statement he made
online, made comments about a section of the human race which were factually
incorrect, historically untrue and plain stupid and derogatory, in my view.
Somehow, in his mind he believed that the power of using a gun, befriending the
members of a congregation in a symbolically famous church for a short while and
then killing them, made him superior, and his concept of the white race, more
superior, and that his actions would make all white people into supremacists
who would rise and kill off the blacks. It is interesting to note, that
black people aint black and white people aint white, they are all sorts of
colours tints and textures, pink and browns and blues and greens as well as
white and black; but we have become blinded by colour stereotypes from seeing
each other as human beings to be loved and cherished.

Yet, there are many folks who believe in that sort of stuff, and they think he
is a hero. They don’t listen to reason or logic, because that is their reason
and logic. They have the right to believe in it. It is guaranteed by the U.S.
Constitution and UN Declaration of Human Rights. But whether such thinking is
protected by some law or other, is irrelevant. Some people have felt like that
throughout human history, from primitive peoples to tribalism, through
feudalism to modern day capitalism. Whatever it is, that is the cause, it is
not the rise of the nation state, though it might just have exacerbated it.
What isn’t allowed, in our day, is acting unlawfully on such beliefs, without
suffering the full force of the law. And then there are those police forces,
town and state authorities, the courts of justice, who don’t operate the laws
of their land and kill and torture so called offenders indiscriminately, but
mostly blacks, though black police also practice it. There are 28 senators who
believe in advanced interrogation techniques...i.e. torture, as a way of
getting at the truth!

The C.I.A. and the US government says that democracy is all about winning
hearts and minds. Great concept...enduring freedom and all that jazz, but the
practice is different. The U.S. is not alone, there is a struggle going on in
Northern Ireland, where Catholics and Protestants are at loggerheads over
various flags been flown on public buildings at various times of year, or
marches organised by Protestant organisations going through Catholic areas.
The politics are wrapped up in who is more British and who is more Irish.

In Scotland there is the famous massacre at Glencoe. See url:

Where a bunch of fellow clansmen came as friends, were given a welcome, food
and accommodation and then slaughtered in their beds in the middle of the night.

Examine your own feelings on this matter, what is it that is most important to
you, prevention, cure, justice, retaliation, revenge, reparation...

Quite frankly, who gives a shit about someone flying a flag, read the Jehovah
Witness case of Gobitis, later overturned by the Supreme Court of the USA...



I always pass on good advice. It is the only thing to do with it. It is never
of any use to oneself. (Oscar Wilde)

From: cryptome-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cryptome-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Gary Wallin
Sent: 22 June 2015 16:46
To: cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Do you suppose comments like this will get me on a
government watchlist?

Code of Laws


CHAPTER 10. Removal and Placement of Confederate Flag
<javascript:change_pos('2')> Next

SECTION 1-10-10. Flags authorized to be flown atop State House dome, in
chambers of Senate and House of Representatives and on grounds of Capitol
Complex; members' offices as "chambers"; private individual wearing, carrying
or displaying <javascript:change_pos('1')> Previousflag
<javascript:change_pos('3')> Nexton capitol grounds.

(A) As of 12:00 noon on the effective date of this act, and permanently
thereafter, the only flags authorized to be flown atop the dome of the State
House, in the chambers of the Senate and House of Representatives, and on the
grounds of the Capitol Complex shall be as authorized in this section.

The flags authorized to be flown atop the dome of the State House and in the
chambers of the Senate and House of Representatives are the United States
<javascript:change_pos('2')> PreviousFlag <javascript:change_pos('4')> Next and
the South Carolina State <javascript:change_pos('3')> PreviousFlag
<javascript:change_pos('5')> Next. As of 12:00 noon on the effective date of
this act, the <javascript:change_pos('4')> Previousflag
<javascript:change_pos('6')> Next authorized to be flown at a designated
location on the grounds of the Capitol Complex is the South Carolina Infantry
Battle <javascript:change_pos('5')> PreviousFlag <javascript:change_pos('7')>
Next of the Confederate States of America [the Battle
<javascript:change_pos('6')> PreviousFlag <javascript:change_pos('8')> Next of
the Army of Northern Virginia (General Robert E. Lee's Army) the South
Carolina, Georgia, Florida Department version]. This
<javascript:change_pos('7')> Previousflag <javascript:change_pos('9')> Next
must be flown on a flagpole located at a point on the south side of the
Confederate Soldier Monument, centered on the monument, ten feet from the base
of the monument at a height of thirty feet. The flagpole on which the
<javascript:change_pos('8')> Previousflag <javascript:change_pos('10')> Next is
flown and the area adjacent to the monument and flagpole must be illuminated at
night and an appropriate decorative iron fence must be erected around the

The South Carolina Infantry Battle <javascript:change_pos('9')> PreviousFlag
<javascript:change_pos('11')> Next of the Confederate States of America is
square measuring fifty-two inches on each side, inclusive of the white border,
with a St. Andrews Cross of blue, edged with white, with thirteen equal
five-pointed stars, upon a red field, with the whole banner bordered in white.
The blue arms of the cross are 7.5 inches wide and the white border around the
<javascript:change_pos('10')> Previousflag <javascript:change_pos('12')> Next
proper is 1.5 inches wide. The stars are five-pointed, inscribed within a
circle six inches in diameter, and are uniform in size.

From any funds appropriated to the Budget and Control Board, the Division of
General Services of the Budget and Control Board, or its successor in interest,
shall ensure that the flags authorized above shall be placed at all times as
directed in this section and shall replace the flags at appropriate intervals
as may be necessary due to wear.

(B) The provisions of this section may only be amended or repealed upon passage
of an act which has received a two-thirds vote on the third reading of the bill
in each branch of the General Assembly.

(C) The term "chambers" of the House or Senate for the purposes of this section
does not include individual members' offices. The provisions of this section do
not prohibit a private individual on the capitol complex grounds from wearing
as a part of his clothing or carrying or displaying any type of
<javascript:change_pos('11')> Previousflag <javascript:change_pos('13')> Next
including a Confederate <javascript:change_pos('12')> PreviousFlag
<javascript:change_pos('14')> Next.

HISTORY: 2000 Act No. 292, § 1.

SECTION 1-10-20. Confederate Flags from above rostrums of Senate and House of
Representatives chambers to be placed and displayed in State Museum.

The actual Confederate Flags (Naval Jack) removed from above the rostrum in the
chambers of the House of Representatives and the Senate must be placed and
permanently displayed in a suitable location in the State Museum.

HISTORY: 2000 Act No. 292, § 1.

SECTION 1-10-30. Confederate <javascript:change_pos('13')> PreviousFlag
<javascript:change_pos('15')> Next from dome to be placed and displayed in
State Museum.

The actual Confederate <javascript:change_pos('14')> PreviousFlag (Naval Jack)
which is flying on the effective date of this act and which is removed from the
dome of the State House must be placed and permanently displayed in a suitable
location in the State Museum.

HISTORY: 2000 Act No. 292, § 6.



On 6/22/2015 10:09 AM, Andrew Hornback wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Gary Wallin <garylwallin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I called for debate, not destruction. I don't know that this flag is state
property, but will concede that it probably is.

If it's flying over a state capital dome, odds are very good that it's state
property. :)

The flag is being imposed by State laws that require it to be displayed.

Got a link to that State law?

The "Stars and Bars", which is actually the Battle Standard of the Army of
Northern Virginia (and later adopted in part and in whole by some states as
part of their state ensign) is not the official Flag of the State of South
Carolina. Instead, the actual state flag that has been legally approved is a
dark blue field with a white crescent and a Palmetto tree.

It is not there by the free choice of any individual citizen.

Are there any states where an individual citizen has full control over the
state flag?

It is a tyrannical government ordered display.

Not trying to be difficult here, but if you could provide a link to the State
law requiring the flying of any flag over the capital dome in the State of
South Carolina, I would certainly appreciate it.

In fact, since the government of South Carolina insists on displaying this
symbol of hate and racism, they are the one's who should be put on watch lists.

Perception and point of view. To some people in the world, the American flag
is a symbol of hate and racism. To others, the Chinese flag, the Libyan flag,
the Israeli flag. Who's perception and point of view really matters in this
discussion? I'd say that lies with the voters of the State of South Carolina

--- A

On 6/22/2015 9:37 AM, Andrew Hornback wrote:

Calling for the destruction of state property may get you on a watch list.

Calling for a riot (or what could be misconstrued as a riot) may get you on a
watch list.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but how is the State of South Carolina
imposing a flag on anyone?

--- A

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Gary Wallin <garylwallin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

A Call for Debate: Should the South Carolina Confederate flag be hacked?

I'm basically a freedom loving person, especially when it comes to freedom of
thought and freedom of expression. I don't have a problem with an individual
thoughts and expressions. But I get upset when their actions are harmful.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to fly a Confederate Flag, a Nazi
Flag, or even the modern American Imperial Flag (I personally prefer the old
Betsy Ross flag of 1776 when this county was fighting against imperialism and
not actively practicing it), that’s fine with me. The kinds of flags people
choose to fly gives my semi-autistic neurons a heads-up on what potential
values and interactions I might have with them.

But I do have a problem when States and Government impose flags on me. I think
I should be able to choose the flag that represents my values. I can understand
why many people in South Carolina would object to a flag that stands not only
for heritage, but often for hate and racism. There are many people in South
Carolina who choose not to personally fly this flag. But the State imposes it
on them. If Governor Haley wants to fly her own personal Confederate Flag,
that’s fine with me. But when she imposes it as representing the consensus of
the people of her State, she has gone to far.

Fortunately, there is something that can be done about this problem. The flag
can be hacked.

As makers and hackers know, it is possible to take out flags with simple tools.
We all have access to modified drones, high power lasers, and other equipment
that could fix this flag. People of good will could simply take out this ugly
symbol with a bit of skilled making and hacking. No human being needs to be
harmed or injured during the process. The question is, should we? Maybe reason
will prevail, and it will come down by government decision making. Maybe not?


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