[cryptome] Re: Do you suppose comments like this will get me on a government watchlist?

  • From: Andrew Hornback <achornback@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:29:01 -0400

Again, Gary, did you read the law that you quoted?

Prior to its enactment, the flag was capable of being flown over the
capital dome and versions were hanging in the House and Senate chambers in
South Carolina. After the enactment of the law, the existing flags were
taken down and placed in a museum while a similar flag flies over a
memorial.

Out of curiosity, consider your own genealogical background - did you have
anyone, even peripherally, in your family fighting on the side of the
Confederacy? And no, don't misconstrue, this is not an attack of any kind
on anyone's background. Just consider for a minute, would it have been
possible?

--- A

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Gary Wallin <garylwallin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

It doesn't take an Intelligence Officer to understand that this flag is
about something more than a memorial to Confederate Soldiers. If it was
actually in a museum, that would be fine. But it's flying on State
property. I suspect that it will soon be coming down.

On 6/22/2015 11:31 AM, Andrew Hornback wrote:

So, you're up in arms about a flag being flown over a memorial to
Confederate Soldiers?

Did you read the law you quoted, sir?

"The flags authorized to be flown atop the dome of the State House and
in the chambers of the Senate and House of Representatives are the United
States Flag and the South Carolina State Flag" I hardly find this
objectionable - do you?

This also states that the flag from the dome and the Naval Jacks hanging
in the Senate and House chambers prior to noon on the effective date of
this act are to be removed and placed in storage at the State Museum.
Surely, you cannot be up in arms about a symbol being placed into display
at the State Museum, can you? Or does this mean you want to burn down the
South Carolina State Museum to rid the world of these horrible flags?

Now, Connecticut, on the other hand, has a much more liberal flag flying
policy: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0295.htm (for those who
are interested) Seems that if the Ambassador from Iraq or the United
Nations is in Hartford, their flag could be flying over the Capital dome.
That would be quite the photo opp...

--- A

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Gary Wallin <garylwallin@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Code of Laws
*TITLE 1. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT*
*CHAPTER 10. Removal and Placement of Confederate Flag[image: Next]*
*SECTION 1-10-10*. Flags authorized to be flown atop State House dome,
in chambers of Senate and House of Representatives and on grounds of
Capitol Complex; members' offices as "chambers"; private individual
wearing, carrying or displaying [image: Previous]flag[image: Next]on
capitol grounds.

(A) As of 12:00 noon on the effective date of this act, and permanently
thereafter, the only flags authorized to be flown atop the dome of the
State House, in the chambers of the Senate and House of Representatives,
and on the grounds of the Capitol Complex shall be as authorized in this
section.

The flags authorized to be flown atop the dome of the State House and in
the chambers of the Senate and House of Representatives are the United
States [image: Previous]Flag[image: Next] and the South Carolina State
[image:
Previous]Flag[image: Next]. As of 12:00 noon on the effective date of
this act, the [image: Previous]flag[image: Next] authorized to be flown
at a designated location on the grounds of the Capitol Complex is the South
Carolina Infantry Battle [image: Previous]Flag[image: Next] of the
Confederate States of America [the Battle [image: Previous]Flag[image:
Next] of the Army of Northern Virginia (General Robert E. Lee's Army)
the South Carolina, Georgia, Florida Department version]. This [image:
Previous]flag[image: Next] must be flown on a flagpole located at a
point on the south side of the Confederate Soldier Monument, centered on
the monument, ten feet from the base of the monument at a height of thirty
feet. The flagpole on which the [image: Previous]flag[image: Next] is
flown and the area adjacent to the monument and flagpole must be
illuminated at night and an appropriate decorative iron fence must be
erected around the flagpole.

The South Carolina Infantry Battle [image: Previous]Flag[image: Next] of
the Confederate States of America is square measuring fifty-two inches on
each side, inclusive of the white border, with a St. Andrews Cross of blue,
edged with white, with thirteen equal five-pointed stars, upon a red field,
with the whole banner bordered in white. The blue arms of the cross are 7.5
inches wide and the white border around the [image: Previous]flag[image:
Next] proper is 1.5 inches wide. The stars are five-pointed, inscribed
within a circle six inches in diameter, and are uniform in size.

From any funds appropriated to the Budget and Control Board, the Division
of General Services of the Budget and Control Board, or its successor in
interest, shall ensure that the flags authorized above shall be placed at
all times as directed in this section and shall replace the flags at
appropriate intervals as may be necessary due to wear.

(B) The provisions of this section may only be amended or repealed upon
passage of an act which has received a two-thirds vote on the third reading
of the bill in each branch of the General Assembly.

(C) The term "chambers" of the House or Senate for the purposes of this
section does not include individual members' offices. The provisions of
this section do not prohibit a private individual on the capitol complex
grounds from wearing as a part of his clothing or carrying or displaying
any type of [image: Previous]flag[image: Next] including a Confederate
[image:
Previous]Flag[image: Next].

HISTORY: 2000 Act No. 292, § 1.

*SECTION 1-10-20*. Confederate Flags from above rostrums of Senate and
House of Representatives chambers to be placed and displayed in State
Museum.

The actual Confederate Flags (Naval Jack) removed from above the rostrum
in the chambers of the House of Representatives and the Senate must be
placed and permanently displayed in a suitable location in the State Museum.

HISTORY: 2000 Act No. 292, § 1.

*SECTION 1-10-30*. Confederate [image: Previous]Flag[image: Next] from
dome to be placed and displayed in State Museum.

The actual Confederate [image: Previous]Flag (Naval Jack) which is
flying on the effective date of this act and which is removed from the dome
of the State House must be placed and permanently displayed in a suitable
location in the State Museum.

HISTORY: 2000 Act No. 292, § 6.

http://www.scstatehouse.gov/query.php?search=DOC&searchtext=flag&category=CODEOFLAWS&conid=7937951&result_pos=0&keyval=7&numrows=10


On 6/22/2015 10:09 AM, Andrew Hornback wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Gary Wallin <garylwallin@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I called for debate, not destruction. I don't know that this flag is
state property, but will concede that it probably is.


If it's flying over a state capital dome, odds are very good that it's
state property. :)


The flag is being imposed by State laws that require it to be displayed.


Got a link to that State law?

The "Stars and Bars", which is actually the Battle Standard of the Army
of Northern Virginia (and later adopted in part and in whole by some states
as part of their state ensign) is not the official Flag of the State of
South Carolina. Instead, the actual state flag that has been legally
approved is a dark blue field with a white crescent and a Palmetto tree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Carolina


It is not there by the free choice of any individual citizen.


Are there any states where an individual citizen has full control over
the state flag?


It is a tyrannical government ordered display.


Not trying to be difficult here, but if you could provide a link to the
State law requiring the flying of any flag over the capital dome in the
State of South Carolina, I would certainly appreciate it.


In fact, since the government of South Carolina insists on displaying
this symbol of hate and racism, they are the one's who should be put on
watch lists.


Perception and point of view. To some people in the world, the
American flag is a symbol of hate and racism. To others, the Chinese flag,
the Libyan flag, the Israeli flag. Who's perception and point of view
really matters in this discussion? I'd say that lies with the voters of
the State of South Carolina primarily.

--- A

On 6/22/2015 9:37 AM, Andrew Hornback wrote:

Calling for the destruction of state property may get you on a watch
list.

Calling for a riot (or what could be misconstrued as a riot) may get
you on a watch list.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but how is the State of South
Carolina imposing a flag on anyone?

--- A

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Gary Wallin <garylwallin@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

A Call for Debate: Should the South Carolina Confederate flag be
hacked?


I'm basically a freedom loving person, especially when it comes to
freedom of thought and freedom of expression. I don't have a problem with
an individual thoughts and expressions. But I get upset when their actions
are harmful.


As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to fly a Confederate Flag,
a Nazi Flag, or even the modern American Imperial Flag (I personally prefer
the old Betsy Ross flag of 1776 when this county was fighting against
imperialism and not actively practicing it), that’s fine with me. The kinds
of flags people choose to fly gives my semi-autistic neurons a heads-up on
what potential values and interactions I might have with them.


But I do have a problem when States and Government impose flags on
me. I think I should be able to choose the flag that represents my values.
I can understand why many people in South Carolina would object to a flag
that stands not only for heritage, but often for hate and racism. There are
many people in South Carolina who choose not to personally fly this flag.
But the State imposes it on them. If Governor Haley wants to fly her own
personal Confederate Flag, that’s fine with me. But when she imposes it as
representing the consensus of the people of her State, she has gone to far.


Fortunately, there is something that can be done about this problem.
The flag can be hacked.


As makers and hackers know, it is possible to take out flags with
simple tools. We all have access to modified drones, high power lasers, and
other equipment that could fix this flag. People of good will could simply
take out this ugly symbol with a bit of skilled making and hacking. No
human being needs to be harmed or injured during the process. The question
is, should we? Maybe reason will prevail, and it will come down by
government decision making. Maybe not?








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