[cryptome] Re: Brexit v Bremain: EU Referendum 2016: Aftermath

  • From: "douglas rankine" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender "douglasrankine2001" for DMARC)
  • To: cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 23:37:23 +0100

Hi John,
In my view, the ruling elites in every nation state, or other form of government have always been keen on knowing what the internal and external threats are to their rule. They have also had a vested interest in attempting to control those threats. A democratic state is supposed to allow for opposition interests, vested, parties, groupings, classes, various minorities etc. to exist, and to allow for the peaceful transfer of political power, from one group to another, provided that that transfer is done according to law, be it via a written or unwritten constitution, using elections and general assemblies etc. and those that use other methods, such as violent insurrection, a military or political coup using force, an external conqueror, or a social revolution, where blackshirts, brownshirts or redshirts of some kind, which would be illegal under the law of that particular state, would be arrested, tried, and if found guilty, punished for their actions. Now I know I am stating it simply...and I know that it aint that simple...:-). But that is the argument which is made by the western democratic states, who make the case that their way of doing things are superior to any one elses on the planet, and it is that path which is supposed to differentiate our ruling elites from other non-democratic elites...
The problem today is how much the security and intelligence services interfere in the security of the state, by conducting illegal, unlawful, unjustified and disproportionate surveillance on those who are not a threat to the state, or by conducting various kinds of propaganda for their own purposes or are acting under instructions of a section of the ruling circles, or the government which they represent or are allied with. Also, they have some bad habits of conning gullible wannabe revolutionaries and terrorists into committing crimes, and even having some of their undercover agents take on false identities and co-habit, marry, have children with the people that they are supposed to be surveilling in the interests of the state...though this is rare...or perhaps I mean that it is rare they get caught out!...:-).
see url: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/20/met-police-apologise-women-had-relationships-with-undercover-officers

There is also the problem of secret funding of political parties, or even open funding of political parties or groupings or vested interests in other states, to the supposed advantage of the "host" state, and the illegal undermining of foreign states, through various kinds of propaganda, subversion, sedition, bribery, corruption and other sabotage operations etc. As we all know, there is a lot of competition in that area, and one secret service will often undermine the work of another secret service, so that the outcome which has been engineered as a careful surgical operation, finishes up as a complete and utter cock up, blood bath and unnecessary chaos ensues in the parasitic country...especially when it comes to those countries who have plenty of money and economic clout and those who have little. Witness, Putin's comment on the USA and its secret involvement in the Ukraine, and the other European states namely Britain, Germany, Poland and even Turkey being involved in this operation.

The Chinese government has already voiced support for the UK government continuing with its membership of the European Union, and the government of Russia has said nothing publicly on the matter...that much I have been able to find out...though I would think that the breaking away of the UK from the European Union would be of some interest to both of them regarding international power relations, diplomacy, alliances, and trade...as well as the other European countries, as I think that there is no question that UK withdrawal will weaken the European Union and the UK, economically and politically.

The reason I haven't talked about the antics of the security and intelligence services in my current series of postings, is because I haven't found any evidence of their interference, apart from 5 eyes supporting Bremain...because it is good for security and intelligence of 5 eyes...and the nations concerned...of course. And, whilst there are pan European security concerns, such as antics to break up Russia and pull away its old satellite countries from its influence and control, or to fight and control and defeat international terrorism; there hasn't been much talk of it amongst the political elite in this discussion we are having over Brexit or Bremain. There is no question at the moment that the UK will leave NATO, or any other bilateral treaties, or security and intelligence co-operation agreements. The one thing that has been stopped is the formation of a European Union Army, because there will be no further political and economic union within the European Union...in my view.

They may very well be drinking an awful lot of coffee and tea in their 9 to 5 jobs, at the taxpayers expense at the moment...and we may, at some time in the future see the result of it. There are an awful lot of migrants who are coming from the Middle East and North Africa, who are arriving in boats and en masse and who haven't got a proper security clearance...I would say, that that is one area which does worry, at least some of us Brits, and the EU appears to be unable to do anything about it...Now, that is not to say that I am opposed to immigration...because I am not...we need more immigrants, not less...and we need to find some way of keeping the Shengen Agreement...even if we do leave...That might be difficult...so be it.

Today...me missus went to her Scrabble Club at the University of the 3rd Age, she lost two games and over tea & bikkies, there was absolutely no discussion, comment or reference to the political bloodbath which is affecting our political parties and elite, as they jockey for power and control and their individual place in the future sun. I might do more comment on that tomorrow.

On 26/06/2016 21:05, John Young wrote:

NYTimes avers that national security is the main concern of the
many nations badgered, bought, bribed and Bremained with
conjoined arms-and-Five-Eyes bristling friends, cousins -- US Giant
shouldering UK Dwarf amidst barking and ass-sniffing puny mates.

The rag fears that RU and CN will benefit from, even cheer lustily
for Brexit retrogression to regional chauvinism (shades of Confederacy
Dark South against Light North). So Trump must be invoked and
belittled as token for millions too ungreat to recognize hole in
ground as manifest destiny (shades of Teddy Roosevelt enslaving
native amercians in order to steal vast national parks)

To be sure, globalists are forever disparaging nationalism and adore
multi-national-lingual treaties stacked meters to moon under cover of
official secrecy -- so as to dare not expose simple earthy citizens and
bowing subjects to complex instruments and edicts only understandable
by exquisite pineals finely wined and tuned to most subtle of wealth
concentration and accumulative signals. Visit EU HQ to see the
useless squander matched only national capitals. Visit NATO
HQ to see useless vehicular churn matched only by nationals
spy digs packed parking lots (empty on weekends, as threats
exist only on workdays 9-5).

Any body part other than .000001% is cancerous to profit maximal.

At 03:31 PM 6/26/2016, you wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

What a lovely day we had today, we went on a visit to Worthing, a town on the South East Coast of England, not far from us; which is full of retired Senior Citizens, mainly rich Conservatives on large retirement pensions. We were participating in the Annual National Gardens Scheme which raises money for charities, by allowing the public to visit private gardens around the country for a small fee and enjoy a walk round the garden and have cream teas and buy plants and flowers. We do it every year, getting ideas for our own garden, and there are many hundreds of us who do so here in Sussex. Again, the roads were busy, the shops were busy, the beaches were busy. Lots of people walking their dogs, the Glastonbury Music Festival, that muddy annual haven of brotherly, motherly, family and romantic love, was once again a sell out, and the only demonstration around. The occasional private plane flew over, as did an RN helicopter.

Meanwhile, back in the Westminster bubble, the main political parties, particularly the Labour Party at the moment, are falling apart over the Brexit vote in the Referendum; 11 members of the Shadow Cabinet have resigned, after Corbyn kicked out Hilary Benn, his Shadow Foreign Secretary, for organising a collective pissing in the tent. The Bremainers, nearly all Blairites, or past supporters of Tony Blair have been plotting to oust the Leader, Jeremy Corbyn, for a while now, and see the Labour Party's recent defeat at the hands of the electorate, as an opportunity to remove him and take over with a leader they feel will be electable.

Never mind the policy, they are saying, one has to look photogenic for the media...and dress tidily and look enthusiastic even when one is feeling like shit! Unfortunately for them, however, is that ousting Corbyn, isn't going to be that easy...because it is policy that is important at the moment and not looks! Though whether Corbyn will survive the pressure of this attempted coup is another matter. The reasons are, that rank and file Labour supporters rejected their, the Blairites advice and the Labour leaders advice, many of them refusing to follow the party line and voted for Brexit. So, even if the ex-Blairites do win the struggle to oust the leader, they won't win over the rank and file. Labour Party procedure means that a leadership contest can't take place until the party conference in September/October, and the Party as a whole, including individual party members and the Trade Unions Block vote participate. The Trade Unions, though weakened, still have a lot of clout.

The Scottish Nationalist Party, who have come out all the stronger in this Referendum, are rubbing salt in the wounds, saying that they may attempt to block the result of the Referendum, saying that it has no legal validity, as it is removing the right of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish nation to remain in the European Union. There is some doubt as to the constitutional law on this matter. Personally, I don't think that the Scottish Parliament does have that right, as it is subordinate to the UK Parliament, and is a regional government under EU law, and not a sovereign parliament in its own right...but who am I?

At a special meeting of the BBC Question Time this evening, 6 people, 3 on the Brexit and 3 on the Bremain, tried to argue it out in front of an audience made up half and half of Brexiteers and Bremainders. It was a total disaster, with recriminations going on between the two sides. There was very little if no common ground. It was mostly a rehash of the arguments around the Referendum, immigration, economics, regaining sovereignty and independence, all the lying, scheming, deceit and false claims made by both parties. There were attempts and appeals for people to be positive, but it wasn't very successful. Calls from the audience for a general election were ignored by the political elite, and calls for a new referendum, were rejected by the whole platform. It has all happened so quickly...and I can see that it is going to be a long haul. All in all, the audience was quite calm and collected and reasonably good natured. It was the politicians who were irate with one another and slagging one another off, for being racists and liars and such like. I haven't had a chance to look at the responses of the countries of Europe. If I get the time, I might look at that later. I notice that the Mayor of Calais wants to shift the UK border back to Dover from Calais...If that happens, things could get really interesting!

The government leadership have been pretty quiet, the P.M. and the Chancellor probably spent all day in a church hall consulting with their congregations, and the Brexit Tories, Boris Johnson, was having private meetings with his cohorts in his country residence somewhere in the Cotswolds, whilst Michael Gove was nowhere to be seen. One does wonder if they are reflecting that their success in winning such a majority for Brexit, was not quite what they wanted or planned for. A nice little majority to stay in would have helped Boris's or Michael's election chances for Prime Minister...but a decisive vote for no is a different kettle of fish...they may have mobilised forces in society which they will later regret...who knows? There have been rumours that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been busy with the Canadian Governor of the Bank of England from further economic and financial meltdown in tomorrow's markets. Actually, the decline in value of the £ against the Euro, has been grossly exaggerated, as has the financial and economic crisis...I should know I have being going to France for a number of years now, and there has been times when the Euro/Pound rate has been worse. Also, my shares, which I bought the other day, have not gone down by much...risk management is a risky business. The ship could sink of course, but then it would probably take most of the rest of the world with it if it did... Farage, the UKIP leader has also been very quiet, probably having a drink and a smoke in a pub somewhere in Essex.

We could be watching a break up of the two party system here, because the Conservative Party is going through the same kind of process. Just because the Brexit lot won the Referendum, doesn't mean to say that they will get the support of the people. Cameron has already given in his notice. Choosing a new Leader could be a lot quicker, because the Conservative Party uses the 1922 committee which is composed of back benchers in Parliament to organise the election of a new leader and they can work pretty quickly. However, they are racked too about who to elect as the new leader. The Brexit lot, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove are in the minority, and to elect Theresa May the present Home Secretary, would be anathema to the electorate because she supports Remain...Quite a conundrum for them all.



And just for John...there is no sign as yet of those agencies you mentioned below, becoming involved or interfering...but it is early days yet...

On 25/06/2016 22:34, douglas rankine (Redacted sender douglasrankine2001 for DMARC) wrote:
Dear John,

Perhaps I have painted too vivid a picture. The trouble with reporting on events, is that ones choice is highly selective, telescoped and magnified into a short space of time, so distorting the outcome. I can only report on what I observe, or perceive, see and hear from the mass media, or when I go out on the streets for shopping or leisure or pleasure. I have no access to the innermost councils or counsels in the corridors of power and wouldn't have a clue what all those agencies you quote below are up to. Apart from the usual heightened awareness about terrorism, which means that the security forces are watching places or people of interest, like airport terminals and borders or major events, Britain is reasonably quiet. The streets are busy, with consumers spending their money on the Saturday shop. People are out enjoying themselves, participating in leisure activities, there are no mass demonstrations, no organised opposition, so far as I know, apart from the usual small interest groups. Our next door neighbours, who are immigrants are from Eastern Europe, are enjoying a barbecue, the neighbours on the other side go trout fishing on a Saturday afternoon, and the only war we have on our plate, is their cats trying to invade our garden and shit and piss on all those lovely flowers, fruits and shrubs which we have planted. They are only held at bay by the electronic warfare defence measures we have been forced to adopt as part of our Cold War, infra red detection, stroboscopic lights and warbling high pitched frequencies above the human range, which come on when the device detects movement, from seagulls, to big fat cats, who refuse to shit on their own side of the garden. So far our defence methods have proved successful, though the devices cost an arm and a leg. And our next door neighbours, are still friendly.

I was sent some photographs today, unfortunately, they didn't come with a link or with the source, and I have been unable to find them on the WWW, so I can't send them via the mailing list, due to attachments being stripped out. But I thought that I could describe them to our colleagues, hopefully, so that it will give them a laugh.

There are 8 photographs, each one side by side in a column. The first 2 photographs are entitled "The 1980s" and contain single portraits of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. The second 2 photographs are entitled "The 1990s" and contain single portraits of Tony Blair and George Bush jnr. The third set of photos entitled 2000 contains single portraits of David Cameron and President Obama. The fourth set of photographs are entitled "The Future" and contain single portraits of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. Not funny in itself...until you see the hair...:-). There is a rumour that the Scots are going to ask Donald Trump to fund the building of a wall between Scotland and England, but I haven't received verification of that, though he is certainly supporting the break up of the UK, and the Scots seeking independence from the UK.

I have had news of another petition on the government website. Apparently, London, which voted solidly for Remain, in some cases by as much as 70% to 30%, have signed up to a petition to create London as a City State within Europe and to break away from the rest of middle England. This is being sent to Sadik Khan, Mayor of London. So far, this petition has received over 100,000 signatures. Reminds me of Garibaldi and the Italian Revolution...and all those City States and Machiavelli etc. and there was I thinking that Garibaldi was all about biscuits!

see url: <https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-declare-london-independent-from-the-uk-and-apply-to-join-the-eu>https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-declare-london-independent-from-the-uk-and-apply-to-join-the-eu

and the new referendum petition has received over 2,000,000 signatures.

see url: <https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215>https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215



P.S. John, have you ever visited the Garibaldi statue in New York? When I visited there many years ago, I wanted to take a picture of it, but there were too policeman standing in front of it and I was too frightened to ask them to move out of the way...one never knows what sort of reception one is going to get from New York Policemen, even in those days...:-)

On 25/06/2016 17:16, John Young wrote:
Are there ingredients for cooking up a civil war? Where are the military and spies
in this simmering conflict? They have treaties and ties to EU, NATO, former
colonies, customers for their armaments and technologies, duplicities and
bitter vengeances. WMDs, bases, ports, satellites, comsec, secrets are
imperiled. Oil, more oil, tankers of oil, oil awaiting underground, under sea.
Natural gas as capacious as parliamentaries, hovering in Russia and its
colonies, offshore the Levantine. Quick, the markets demand instant
answers or the bottom drops beyond recovery.

Who will invade to rescue the disputants? Best check the US Civil War
for guidance in sanctimonious internecine butchering.

At 11:30 AM 6/25/2016, you wrote:

And now...the shock sets in...the uncertainty, the risk...the cost. It's OK to win a debate.  It is OK to receive a mandate...but how and who is to put it into operation?. The remain crowd want instant answers from the brexit crowd. Solve it all in a day. Now we are out, now we are no longer the "in" crowd, but still in charge, what do we do?...Not a lot...is the answer...

 What are the brexit crowd going to do...Nuffink...what are the answers...Brexit don't know...they haven't got that far.  They are not in charge. The remain crowd are in charge...and they don't like being instructed by the people to get out of the EU. Splits and divisions are everywhere, between town and country, class and privilege, working class and middle class, young and old, north and south, nation and nation.Â

Dear Colleagues,

Today, on "Any Questions" on BBC Radio 4, there was a very interesting discussion between 4 M.P.s from the two main parties about what happened, where it went wrong, personal recriminations vicious attempts at accusing one another of lying and deceit...lies told about immigration, about the economy about security; politicians should only tell lies to foreign leaders, but not to their own people...said one M.P. I thought that was funny, some kind of twisted morality there, and where do we go from here. We need psychotherapists not politicians.

Afterwards, in "Any Answers" Joe Public had a chance to speak over the telephone. Such crying and wailing I have never heard...One would think it was the end of the world for some. The Referendum was a fiddle, lies were being told by politicians, so negating the debate and referendum, the big red bus belonging to the Brexit lot had £350 million a week to go to the NHS if we vote to leave. Oh! Dear! It went on and on. Some folks voted with their heart and not their minds and want another referendum, because they aren't happy with the result, and didn't expect the outcome. Some youngsters were crying their hearts out saying that they had no future. Others want a re-run...a petition with over 1,000,000 signatures has been lodged on the Parliament Web Site, asking for another one. Others are saying let's have a general election, now that the Prime Minister is going. Others still, say that there should be a 75% vote for in the referendum, with over 75% of the population voting.   52% to 48% is not a mandate..

Actually, there is no way of implementing the result of the referendum, as Mr. Cameron has decided to leave the decision to the next Prime Minister who won't be selected by the Party Conference in October.  So, the Tory plot to get us out by the 80 Eurosceptic, may yet unravel. The EU wants us to enter a Section 50 notice of leaving straight away as they don't want to hang around due to insecurities in their own back yards, and want to get on with punishing us, to show the rest of the 500 million people not to bother trying to leave. The markets are affected, Obama is putting us at the bottom of the queue for trade, the country is falling apart...doom, doom, doom. Meanwhile, back in reality, some of us are looking forward to this brave new world, where a little England is to be born from a Great Britain...and Scotland is to become independent and part of the EU...and Northern Ireland might sign a treaty with Eire...There are times when politics can be a real gem...:-).

Who would be a politician...


On 24/06/2016 11:55, Douglas rankine (Redacted sender douglasrankine2001 for DMARC) wrote:

Well! Much to my surprise...and the horror of the Big Yins, the politicians, establishment, financiers, banks, the experts, the gurus and the upper Middle Classes of England who work at the independent BBC, the British people voted by 52% to 48% to come out of the European Union.  An historic event, a deliberate event, resulting in chaos in the international financial markets...so much so that I couldn't invest any money in shares this morning, due to my trader being unavailable, perhaps some of the "secret" measures which have been taken by the Bank of England to prevent the economy going down the pan...or it might just be...that the stockbroker is a bit busy with people like me, the small investor on a pension, turning his useless savings into an attempt at capital gains. No millions of share trades a second for me then. I am off on holiday shortly, and didn't buy any Euros, so I am losing out there.

It was all going so well on TV...the usual line up of commentators, of pollsters, of politicians on both sides, of establishment figures, all dressed up in their fine clothes, looking respectable and looking forward to earning easy money in appearance fees at the license payers expense and all clambering to get on the tele...knowing smiles between them all, in the expectation that the people of the UK...or more correctly, the English Shires, would vote for Remain.

And then...came Sunderland...a massive vote for no...Sunderland is in the North of England, not all that big in population terms and hasn't been doing very well economically, lots of unemployment and poor people, low priced housing, unlike London with its housing and financial centres all locked into Europe and the international financial markets, and making plenty of spondoolix from their investments in housing and the financial centre. The massive unexpected rejection of the EU, was a small fact but which shook the foundations, the assumptions of greatness; the stanchions of confidence...and wiped the smiles from the faces of the Big Yins assembled at the BBC...From then on, it was a downward trend...a terrible situation, all the usual diatribes, monologues of self-recrimination, from the politicians of the main parties, of how they should have listened to the people. The Labour Party was already fucked...their role in the Scottish Independence Referendum, done for them, lost them their credibility with the Scottish people, and also affected the traditional confidence which the English working classes had in them. The working classes of England ignored their advice, knowing full well that their leader was tongue in cheek, and only believed in the EU when he became Leader of the Labour Party. The Tories were also fucked in Scotland, done for by Margaret Thatcher and her poll tax which turned Scotland into a turmoil, they too were split, it was their Eurosceptic M.P.s who organised the referendum and the leave campaign. UKIP screwed up in the campaign, and Farage was all over the place last night, but not very visible on the tele, claiming a losing wicket at first, then claiming victory a tad too early...such is the way of UKIP.

What a mix we have. Scotland and London and tiny Northern Ireland has voted to continue with the EU. Whilst, most of the rest of England and Wales has voted against our continuing membership. Scotland is now saying that they will have another referendum, with a view to joining the European Union as in independent nation...The financial markets have reacted poorly to this new opportunity for the UK.   So much for entrepreneurship...more to do with defraying risk, than taking risk...but isn't that the way of the capitalists, they do like to be subsidised by the state when they take risks, then if all goes well, they get the profits, and if it goes badly, the taxpayer bails them out. Pyramids are crumbling, small is beautiful...the Wee Yins have dumped on the Big Yins, but not for long. The European and World markets and governments have not taken kindly to the vote...the Empire will fight back.

Still, that is what politics and human relationships, between states, governments, businesses and people is all about. Sometime, somewhere, someone or something, throws a spanner in the works, and just as we start to get complacent, along comes a kick up the arse and gets us all going again.

Is this a move to the right or left, is it a move towards fascism? Difficult to talk in those terms these day. Certainly moves towards lots of little chaoses.

Is small beautiful? Will we see a break up of the EU, a new superstate called the Disunited European Union, as part of the world free market, along with the Disunited United Kingdom...and perhaps a Disunited States of America under Donal Trump? Questions for the future...methinks.:-)

With kind regards,


P.S. Donal Trump is coming to Scotland today, to look down upon his golfing empire. Some unkind Scot has posted a Mexican Flag on a high flagpole in full view of the route of his cortège as he comes to visit...what a welcome...:-).

P.P.S. And what about international security and intelligence...Will it be less secure now that the UK has voted to leave the EU. Haven't heard a dickey bird...maybe the answer to that is a...you've guessed it...a secret...:-).

On 24/06/2016 00:13, Adrien Jolibert wrote:
Brexit is not loosing an opinion.

They are loosing democracy as in democrate. This is the sadness thing Europe can see and aplaude.

From Marx to others before thinkers, all the system is mad.

I am so sad all those smarts went dumb because all of you are enginees of massive destruction.
Europe is not A money but where people cross others.
Europe is where opinions differs and give richness.

Europe is build from its richness not its clossness.
A brexit was greater than a join because we are not sames.

Thank you for voting Britain. Bless on you.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 12:20 PM, douglas rankine <<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

This morning...after a night of calm reflection...caused by one of the most violent thunderstorms and floods of rain we have had in years, I popped down to the polling station and voted. In the UK one doesn't need any I.D. one just says ones name and address, the polling clerk ticks the name on a list, a numbered ballot paper is handed over, the number of the ballot paper is recorded on the ballot list, and then goes off to cast ones vote in secret at the ballot box. After filling it in, one duly deposits the folded paper into a numbered ballot box, supervised by a ballot box attendant and...it is all tickety boo, ready for the next citizen to participate. The ballot box was made of canvas and sealed, and when the paper was deposited, a flap made it difficult to get the paper back out again. There were no police in attendance...after all we are British, no one outside wanting to collect our polling card and ask which way we voted, and there was a steady dribble of people, mostly senior citizens.

After the polls are closed the ballot papers are taken, under seal and the watchful eye of the Head Polling Clark to the nearest counting station, where they are brought in and opened by counting clerks under the watchful eyes of representatives of the main political parties, and then they are counted. In the case of a referendum, I don't know if there will be watchful eyes from the political parties, or who it is that will challenge any ballot papers which have been filled our wrongly or are of doubtful clarity...apart from the elections officers. That will be an interesting one to find out. The United Nations committee on such matters, reckons that the UK has one of the worst voting systems in the world...worse than any 3rd world country, ever since Tony Blair changed it so that there could be polling stations in the likes of Tescos and where it was made a lot easier for postal voting to take place. It is reckoned that around one third of votes take place through the postal vote and they have all been done weeks ago, so the main campaign has little or no influence on those votes. The results will be decided on those who vote today, particularly that 10% or so, the ones, like me, who kept their options open until the moment of casting.

It was so easy, I am wondering why this is the first time I have voted in years...must have been some reason...the lesser of two evils perhaps, or the evil of two lessers. We have two methods of voting in the UK, one is secret ballot by post, where the householder can send in the ballot papers for everyone in the house, the other is by attendance at the secret ballot. We also have two selection methods in UK elections, the general election is done by the "first past the post" system, which produces a majority in a constituency, but has led to minority governments being elected since the end of the Second World War, and we have a proportional representation system, which allows UKIP to get European M.P.s elected to the European Union. As the referendum has no candidates, and only one question with two answers, first past the post will win...No gradiated answers here...like how keen I am on saying yes or no, on a grade up to 10, or room for alternative kinds of European Union, like a common market and not a European Super State...

Yougov, of which I am a member, a most respected pollster in the UK, which is why I am a member, plus they give you points for every piece of your nakedness that you reveal, and points mean prizes...£50 for 5000 points which one gets roughly every 5 years....composed of experts in polling systems, and people from the BBC and getting results which are reasonably accurate (apart from the last general election) sent me an email last night asking if I was voting, at roughly what time in the day I will be voting, and how I will be voting. The reason they wanted to know, was so that they could beat everyone else by sending me another email after I have voted to confirm that I had voted, so coming up with the result, one way or the other, before anyone else does...and even before the polling has ended...except they won't be able to publish it, due to a forbidding clause in the Representation of the People Act 1948, as amended blah blah blah. Good ole computers and clever use of them and clever marketing are all the play today, saves on people standing out in the thundering rain, collecting individual responses, in the thousands of polling stations around the country...Nuffink like having efficient computers. We will become a First World country soon, getting electronic voting, just like the US of A...but not quite yet...problem of trust, apparently...:-).

And which way did I vote...I bet you are all wanting to know...:-). No, non, nein, and nyet.

Tattybye for now.


P.S. I reckon that Remain will win, by 58% to 43%.

P.P.S And, just for the crack, seeing as we are all experts in deception on this mailing list...apart from each other...of course...where honesty, sincerity and accurate non-selective information dominates... Did you know that 5 eyes are unanimous that for reasons of security and intelligence in the western world, it is better that the UK remains a member. And where did that come from...some classified, secret document....No,no, no. The big yin, the top dog of the the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party revealed that wee gem. Up until lately, I think she was the only member of the Scottish Conservative Party...but things will change...

On 22/06/2016 12:35, Joe Products wrote:
I am for Remain.

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: John Young <mailto:jya@xxxxxxxxxxxx><jya@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Komu: <mailto:cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Datum: 22. 6. 2016 12:44:02
PÅ™edmÄ›t: [cryptome] Re: Brexit v Bremain: EU Referendum 2016

It has been argued that the smaller the government the better, and conversely,
the larger the worse.

The few who most benefit from larger are adamant about its necessity. And
will go to war -- police, civil, global -- to protect the top of the pyramid.

And will empower spies, police, military, justice, to do what is necessary
to protect the privileged few inside and outside government.

And conspire with other pyramid tops to assure their perpetuation.

And will enforce pyramid top policies upon smaller by whatever means
are necessary: military, propaganda, education, bribery, coercion,
insurrection, revolution.

And will legislate laws to justify perpetuation and criminalize opposition,
and condone whatever means are necessary.

And will squander societal, economic and physical resources in the
name of "national security," a euphemism for larger government's
pyramid topism.

And will propound the notion that enlightened, benevolent leadership
is essential for peace, security and civilization, while demonstrating
as necessary the murderous mass brutality to suppress opposition
at home and abroad, in consort with other like-minded, heavily
armed pyramid tops.

Statements like this assure placement in a dossier of opposition.
So it must be said, this is only a means to seduce others to hang

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