Re: USF4 changes!
- From: "Donaldson, Alasdair" <alasdair.donaldson@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:39:11 +0000
Erm... Jaeger bombs and tequila... I don't think I'm making work tomorrow...
Not really following the emails either.
From: Ilitirit Sama [mailto:ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:07 PM South Africa Standard Time
To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
The gameplay demo of MGSV was awesome, but it does make the Fulton RS seem OP.
I hope they balance it out nicely in the final version. I mean, it costs 1000
GMP for a cardboard box delivery, but only 300 GMP per Fulton?
Game looks incredibly fun though.
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Wynand-Ben
<paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Ah k
All I know about how its generated is the bit you quoted from Otaku, havent
seen any interviews myself yet.
While that sounds less impressive it should probably count as a procedurally
generated "cat" instead of generated "animal". So I guess they could
technically not be lying... :P
There will be shortcuts taken. From the 1st time I saw this I was just
thinking is how the hell will a Indy team manage this?
Will see someday I guess. Hope they take their time and do it properly.
Game looks intriguing
________________________________
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 21:09:21 +0200
Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
From: ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx>
To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
But that's what I'm saying. From the interview it just sounds like they just
have blueprints for known animals. Cats, dinosaurs, fish. How many ways can
you really generate a cat? Who is really going to be impressed when they see a
spotted panther for the 5th time, only in a different colour or size? In
Spore, every animal has the potential to look completely different. I'm not
getting a sense of any of that from what they are doing here. They didn't
mention anything about exotic animals. They mention that deer will exist on
different planets but they will look different. That's not impressive. Deer
exist in different countries on Earth and they look different. In Spore, no
two animals look the same (well, some do by virtue of mutation). So either
they're overstating what their engine is capable of, or it's not yet ready for
a proper demo.
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Wynand-Ben
<paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Generating tree's and animals could use the same kind of level generation
algorithms I reckon.
A "exotic" animal could have 1-8 legs. Its ass cant be too close to its mouth,
the legs need to be in usable positions.
Or tree's, cant have all the branches/leaves be too close together or oddly
spread out... so there will be some sort of algorithm to make them look
"natural".
I dont see how it is any different.
I still have no real idea what you actually have to do in the game... other
than "explore". Gather stuff? Trade? Fight? Do what and to what end?
Hopefully they can make it fun.
________________________________
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:35:15 +0200
Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
From: ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx>
To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
If you have a base template and just tweak a few variables, it's not really
procedural. It's just randomly assigning values to different properties. eg.
When you click "Random Appearance" on the character build menu in an RPG.
There's no real algorithm behind it. Procedural level generation on the other
hand does require an algorithm eg. exit can't be too close to the start, every
room must have an entrance etc etc.
I also think don't think they're going to be able to deliver what they
mentioned, or at least make it fun without some big changes. They said the
gameplay will take place in on true Universal scale. Ignoring the mathematics,
it honestly sounds like the most boring MMO ever. The odds of you running into
another player is exceedingly small, and they even acknowledge it! What's the
point of an MMO where there's little-to-no interaction with other players? It
might as well be a single-player game. I think this is one aspect of the game
they will need to rethink very carefully.
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Wynand-Ben
<paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I dont take any marketing jargon seriously... dont see why this is any
different.
Only thing im worried about is that they have bitten off more than they can
chew. The game sounds and looks good but im not sure if its doable properly
with a Indy team/budget.
If the size of it is really what they claim it to be then procedural generation
would be the only way to go. Nobody would create that big of a universe by
hand.
"From the article on Kotaku it seems they just have a base template for various
classes of animals and plants and they tweak it to give them slightly different
appearances. That's very different from procedural generation."
Why is it different? Diablo 2 levels where procedurally generated... they were
never the same. (Maybe not never but the odds are that it happened). Using
sets of preconstructed base items/areas/stuff.
Its just varying degrees. If they builds stuff modular or interchangable
enough they could "hopefully" generate a shitload of different "Stuff".
The scope of the universe alone sounds amazing tho if they can keep it from
beeing too samey after you have seen too much of their "constructions"
Would be cool if they pull this off
________________________________
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 19:57:36 +0200
Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
From: ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx>
To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
There's no way I can take any game that makes claims like that seriously.
They start out by saying all footage is captured in real time. Believable.
Then they start talking about procedural generation. Unbelievable.
So, how much of it then is just marketing blurb? I really doubt they generated
life algorithmically (they have fish and dinosaurs). It's not impossible
(Spore did it), but so now I scratch that off my list as well. What does that
leave you with then? Procedurally generated terrain? That's nothing new or
interesting.
From the article on Kotaku it seems they just have a base template for various
classes of animals and plants and they tweak it to give them slightly different
appearances. That's very different from procedural generation.
Those systems Ream mentioned are indeed real. Murray and Ream showed me their
toolset to prove just how infinite the creatures and objects in their game are.
Ream pulls up a blue-ish menu with lines of code written across the screen and
quickly clicks across it to pull up a very specific menu within their engine.
Before I know it, he's selected an option for trees and I'm staring at one.
There's a blueprint for a fairly standard-looking tree off on the right. He
clicks a button that says "view variants." Dozens of new trees—of different
shapes, sizes, and colors—pop up on the left.
"This is our toolset," Murray says as we scroll through the trees. "We built
our own engine. It's super crappy, but it's kind of like Unity or something
like that. We've written it all around procedural generation. And that's kind
of what we spent the first year, when it was just four of us, what we spent our
time doing. And then the last month before the VGXs we built the trailer using
that."
http://kotaku.com/how-a-seemingly-impossible-game-is-possible-1592820595
Personally I think they're either just throwing the word around for marketing
hype, or their engine is nowhere near in a state where they can start demoing
true procedurally generated life.
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Wynand-Ben
<paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Sounds like you are taking a marketing comment a tad too serious...
I fairly sure its just a fancy way of saying the all of the environments are
procedurally generated.
________________________________
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 19:44:25 +0200
Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
From: ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx>
To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
This trailer for this game pisses me off so much that I want to smash my PC
monitor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-v6R_T1hEs
Every atom procedural? WTF does that even mean you morons?
Did you codify the laws of Quantum Physics into your engine so that quarks had
no choice BUT to assemble into stable atoms?
And if you got that far, why even bother telling us stuff like leaves, rocks
and planets are procedurally generated? Surely these things should have just
emerged from your awesome Quantum Physics engine?
Or let's give them the benefit of the doubt and suppose they just have
algorithms than can arbitrarily combine electrons, protons and neutrons to
create new atoms (much easier than even understanding Quantum Mechanics).
There are about 7*10^27 atoms in 70kg human body. Suppose their algorithm can
procedurally create 100 atoms per microsecond (100 million per second). That
means in order to create a human it would take 2.22 * 10^9 millenia to
procedurally generate 1 human.
-_-
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