Re: USF4 changes!

  • From: Ilitirit Sama <ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 21:10:49 +0200

Lol, it seems that other people also share my skepticism about their claims
of procedural generation.

http://www.joshandjayshow.com/nomansskybeta/


On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Ilitirit Sama <ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> But that's what I'm saying.  From the interview it just sounds like they
> just have blueprints for known animals.  Cats, dinosaurs, fish.  How many
> ways can you really generate a cat?  Who is really going to be impressed
> when they see a spotted panther for the 5th time, only in a different
> colour or size?  In Spore, every animal has the potential to look
> completely different.  I'm not getting a sense of any of that from what
> they are doing here.  They didn't mention anything about exotic animals.
> They mention that deer will exist on different planets but they will look
> different.  That's not impressive.  Deer exist in different countries on
> Earth and they look different.  In Spore, no two animals look the same
> (well, some do by virtue of mutation).  So either they're overstating what
> their engine is capable of, or it's not yet ready for a proper demo.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Wynand-Ben <paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>> Generating tree's and animals could use the same kind of level generation
>> algorithms I reckon.
>>
>> A "exotic" animal could have 1-8 legs.  Its ass cant be too close to its
>> mouth, the legs need to be in usable positions.
>> Or tree's, cant have all the branches/leaves be too close together or
>> oddly spread out...  so there will be some sort of algorithm to make them
>> look "natural".
>>
>> I dont see how it is any different.
>>
>>
>>
>> I still have no real idea what you actually have to do in the game...
>>  other than "explore".  Gather stuff?  Trade?  Fight? Do what and to what
>> end?
>>
>> Hopefully they can make it fun.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:35:15 +0200
>>
>> Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>> From: ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx
>> To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> If you have a base template and just tweak a few variables, it's not
>> really procedural.  It's just randomly assigning values to different
>> properties.  eg.  When you click "Random Appearance" on the character build
>> menu in an RPG.  There's no real algorithm behind it.  Procedural level
>> generation on the other hand does require an algorithm eg. exit can't be
>> too close to the start, every room must have an entrance etc etc.
>>
>> I also think don't think they're going to be able to deliver what they
>> mentioned, or at least make it fun without some big changes.  They said the
>> gameplay will take place in on true Universal scale.  Ignoring the
>> mathematics, it honestly sounds like the most boring MMO ever.  The odds of
>> you running into another player is exceedingly small, and they even
>> acknowledge it!  What's the point of an MMO where there's little-to-no
>> interaction with other players?  It might as well be a single-player game.
>> I think this is one aspect of the game they will need to rethink very
>> carefully.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Wynand-Ben <paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I dont take any marketing jargon seriously...  dont see why this is any
>> different.
>>
>>
>> Only thing im worried about is that they have bitten off more than they
>> can chew.  The game sounds and looks good but im not sure if its doable
>> properly with a Indy team/budget.
>>
>> If the size of it is really what they claim it to be then procedural
>> generation would be the only way to go.  Nobody would create that big of a
>> universe by hand.
>>
>>
>> "*From the article on Kotaku it seems they just have a base template for
>> various classes of animals and plants and they tweak it to give them
>> slightly different appearances.  That's very different from procedural
>> generation.*"
>>
>> Why is it different?  Diablo 2 levels where procedurally generated...
>> they were never the same. (Maybe not never but the odds are that it
>> happened).  Using sets of preconstructed base items/areas/stuff.
>>
>> Its just varying degrees.  If they builds stuff modular or interchangable
>> enough they could "hopefully" generate a shitload of different "Stuff".
>>
>>
>> The scope of the universe alone sounds amazing tho if they can keep it
>> from beeing too samey after you have seen too much of their "constructions"
>>
>> Would be cool if they pull this off
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 19:57:36 +0200
>>
>> Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>> From: ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx
>> To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> There's no way I can take any game that makes claims like that seriously.
>>
>> They start out by saying all footage is captured in real time.
>> Believable.
>>
>> Then they start talking about procedural generation.  Unbelievable.
>> So, how much of it then is just marketing blurb?  I really doubt they
>> generated life algorithmically (they have fish and dinosaurs).  It's not
>> impossible (Spore did it), but so now I scratch that off my list as well.
>> What does that leave you with then?  Procedurally generated terrain?
>> That's nothing new or interesting.
>>
>> From the article on Kotaku it seems they just have a base template for
>> various classes of animals and plants and they tweak it to give them
>> slightly different appearances.  That's very different from procedural
>> generation.
>>
>> Those systems Ream mentioned are indeed real. Murray and Ream showed me
>> their toolset to prove just how infinite the creatures and objects in their
>> game are.
>> Ream pulls up a blue-ish menu with lines of code written across the
>> screen and quickly clicks across it to pull up a very specific menu within
>> their engine. Before I know it, he's selected an option for trees and I'm
>> staring at one. There's a blueprint for a fairly standard-looking tree off
>> on the right. He clicks a button that says "view variants." Dozens of new
>> trees—of different shapes, sizes, and colors—pop up on the left.
>> "This is our toolset," Murray says as we scroll through the trees. "We
>> built our own engine. It's super crappy, but it's kind of like Unity or
>> something like that. We've written it all around procedural generation. And
>> that's kind of what we spent the first year, when it was just four of us,
>> what we spent our time doing. And then the last month before the VGXs we
>> built the trailer using that."
>>
>> http://kotaku.com/how-a-seemingly-impossible-game-is-possible-1592820595
>>
>> Personally I think they're either just throwing the word around for
>> marketing hype, or their engine is nowhere near in a state where they can
>> start demoing true procedurally generated life.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Wynand-Ben <paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like you are taking a marketing comment a tad too serious...
>>
>> I fairly sure its just a fancy way of saying the all of the environments
>> are procedurally generated.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 19:44:25 +0200
>> Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>> From: ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx
>> To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>> This trailer for this game pisses me off so much that I want to smash my
>> PC monitor
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-v6R_T1hEs
>>
>> Every atom procedural?  WTF does that even mean you morons?
>>
>> Did you codify the laws of Quantum Physics into your engine so that
>> quarks had no choice BUT to assemble into stable atoms?
>>
>> And if you got that far, why even bother telling us stuff like leaves,
>> rocks and planets are procedurally generated?  Surely these things should
>> have just emerged from your awesome Quantum Physics engine?
>>
>> Or let's give them the benefit of the doubt and suppose they just have
>> algorithms than can arbitrarily combine electrons, protons and neutrons to
>> create new atoms (much easier than even understanding Quantum Mechanics).
>> There are about 7*10^27 atoms in 70kg human body.  Suppose their algorithm
>> can procedurally create 100 atoms per microsecond (100 million per
>> second).  That means in order to create a human it would take 2.22 * 10^9
>> millenia to procedurally generate 1 human.
>>
>> -_-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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