[cldp] Re: libraries wrapping incompatible interfaces

  • From: Karol Pietrzak <kap4020@xxxxxxx>
  • To: cldp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:19:12 -0400

On Saturday 15 April 2006 02:25, Benjamin Rich wrote:

> I think CUPS is probably the most promising, but if we need to support
> other spoolers, then certainly I agree we should. I'll leave the way
> multiple spoolers are supported up to you, though I think we should
> have default printing functions accessing CUPS.

One thing I thought about is whether uses would ever have multiple spoolers 
installed and running on a machine.  Like, CUPS _and_ LPRng.

Also, do you know, offhand, of recent distribution which doesn't use CUPS?  
This is part of the research I'll have to conduct to make the Printing Layer 
usable.  Apart from keeping it in a file somewhere on my computer, is there a 
Wiki page or something I could put it on?

> Here is the udev/hal/dbus/gnome-volume-manager stack of functionality
> as I understand it:
> udev is a userpspace utility which interfaces with the kernel, and
> dynamically provides the /dev tree of device nodes, eg. from the
> bios/kernel to userspace apps. it is a replacement for the old static
> /dev node tree. it has something to do with sysfs, which is also
> implemented by the kernel and provides device information in /sys -
> though I don't know if udev provides the info or the kernel does.
> hal is the linux 'hardware abstraction layer', which picks up devices
> from the system, and allows abstracted access to them. it runs as a
> daemon (and is also presumably a set of libraries for abstracted
> hardware access)
> dbus is a messaging system, which allows applications to send messages
> to other applications. it's like corba or dcom. it's used with hal to
> inform various applications that such-and-such a device has been
> loaded.
> gnome-volume-manager (along with a few other volume managers out
> there) is a 'policy agent' which sits on top of the udev/hal/dbus
> stack, and implements user-specified policies on loaded devices - eg.
> 'when someone inserts a dvd, start playing it with X dvd move player
> program'.

I see... I don't know what the KDE equivalent of gnome-volume-manager is, but 
the Volume Layer will have to wrap them.  For example, if an ISV specifies 
that RealPlayer can now play DVDs, both GNOME and KDE should know about it.

Any other window managers or desktop environments have something of this kind?  
FVWM?  If our library actually does all this, I can imagine lots of window 
managers using it. :)

> Since it's stable, GTK, and doesn't have any crazy QT/KDE
> meta-compiled event-driven thread crap in it, I was thinking it might
> be a nice codebase to start from in designing, effectively, a stripped
> down version of that very thing. Since looking into it though, it
> doesn't seem useful since we don't want to enforce policies on devices
> (we don't want to mount anything, we just want access to devices
> through hal/dbus).
> But gnome-volume-manager contains (or uses, or is hard-coded with,
> er...) something called pmount which seems to be a core component.
> Maybe this is worth a look?

Yes, definitely.  I've done little research on the Volume Layer section, so 
I'm keeping all my options open.

Here's some interesting links:

* pmount
- http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/pmount
* setting up KDE, HAL, etc.
- http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_D-BUS,_HAL,_KDE_media:/
* ivman: generic handler for HAL events
- http://ivman.sourceforge.net/
* gnome-volume-manager
- http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Using_Gnome_Volume_Manager.shtml
- http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_gnome-volume-manager
- the license of gnome-volume-manager is GPL, which is unfortunate because we 
will not be able to include in the library as a fallback if we keep a zlib 
style license.

Initially, I'm hoping to wrap gnome-volume-manager and whatever KDE's 
equivalent is.  That will cover the vast majority of desktop Linux users.


> The whole hal/volume-manager/etc. thing is part of Project Utopia, I
> couldn't find the actual authors (other than that Robert Love appears
> to written the original). I found this CVS link but I don't know if
> it's current or they've moved the current sources to somewhere else:
> http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/gnome-volume-manager/
> You can get the latest stable source tarball from the gnome site:
> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/desktop/2.14/2.14.0/sources/
> Take a look, tell me what you find =)

I must admit, I was not familiar with Project Utopia, and I've read just a 
little bit.  The Linux Journal article was helpful to me: 

It appears Project Utopia is divided into a platform-agnostic, system-level 
and a GNOME-based user level.

I imagine it would be great if we could somehow take advantage of the 
system-level part somehow.  Licensing issues will likely exist.  A quick 
search did not yield any answers.  Do you know, off chance?

> > > The LDPL (which we can codename Sally for convenience)
> > > would not allow a user, or an app, to search for printers or match
> > > correct drivers; nor would the LDVL (which we'll call Norwood) ask the
> > > user which was their default CD drive, etc.
> >
> > Sounds good!  We'll also have to avoid trampling on distribution makers
> > toes: SuSE has its own dialogs for configuring CD/DVD drives, but the
> > beauty of a library is that we can wrap that.
> Even so, I don't think we shouldn't wrap too much, it makes our
> components too reliant on distro-specific things. My original idea for
> the CLDP was to make it very general and open, so that distributions
> could do their own integration of it with their systems.

Yes, definitely.  I think the generic case would be the fallback.  For 
instance, SuSE has its own advanced CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive detection scheme.  
It's probably way better than whatever I could come up with.

The Volume Layer would check whether the system is a SuSE system, and if so, 
use SuSE's mechanism.  Otherwise, is this is a Linux from Scratch machine, 
then we're probably going to have to manually detect devices (or hopefully 
use someone else's, depending on the licensing).

> > > I might add these ones to the site soon, you've got me thinking now =)
> > >  Of course, we will need someone to, um, write them - you're more than
> > > welcome =P
> >
> > Gladly. :)  Like I said, I already have some code.  Here's a few more
> > details on this library that I've thought up along the way:
> > 1. I also want this library to gain a large user base in both the
> > commercial and non-commercial spheres.  So, I would like the license to
> > be something along the lines of the zlib license, which basically allows
> > anything.
> >
> > I think this library would be staticly linked for convenience, at least
> > in the beginning.
> What does the zlib license entail, is it like the berkley license?

I'm not familiar with the Berkley license.  Are you referring to the BSD 
License?  http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php?

FYI, here's a link to the zlib license: 

> Statically linked meaning, developers would compile their apps against
> the source of the printing library? I think a more dyanmic model might
> work better for making changes to the libraries - we want stable API's
> with long release cycles, which can be distributed closed and without
> the need for recompilation. I may be misunderstanding you though?

No, I think we're on the same page.  I must have mis-spoken.

Initially, our library will have limited visibility and little usage: the 
disadvantages of a shared library will outweight any advantages.

In the beginning, I imagine developers and ISVs will just include the source 
in their projects and compile.  It's the simplest, easiest thing to do.

In the future, as the library picks up speed and usage, then I feel the 
advantages of a shared library will outweigh the disadvantages.

Perhaps one day (long shot here :-P),  both GNOME and KDE will use the 
library, in which case a shared library will be perfect.

I completely agree with you in that stable APIs are of the utmost importance.

> > 2. Great names, IMO!  I think aesthetics  is very important, even for a
> > purely developer-oriented library like this.  The names you've given also
> > illustrate the different components that this library will consist of.
> Yeah I'm wondering whether to name everything individually, LD*L could
> become confusing after we add another two or three projects =P

Hmm, it's up to you.  Actually, I realized  that "CLDP" is actually a very 
common acronym:
- Commercial Law Development Program
- Chinese Linux Documentation Project
- Collegiate Leadership Development Program

Are you ok with that, or do you plan on changing the name?

> > 3. Another component will be the Desktop Integration component, or some
> > such. It will install menu items, register MIME types, and use handlers. 
> > Like you mentioned, the Portland project will do a lot of the work for
> > us, but only for modern distributions.  The Autopackage folks have
> > already done a lot of this, but even they have expressed interest in
> > extracting the hard work they've done in wrapping distributions into an
> > external library for ISVs to use.  It's not perfect, and hopefully we can
> > help them out by having a complete library.
> >
> > This library will hopefully support older distributions that are still in
> > heavy use, such as older releases Debian and RedHat Enterprise Linux
> > releases.
> All install/uninstall/execution functionality will be part of
> BrickLayer - check out the 'packaging' page on the site, I've updated
> the spec a little more re these things.

Ah, I see [http://www.linux-platform.org/bricklayer/index.php].  Actually, I 
think Klik has a working app folder implementation already.  See 

Also, do you think it's a good idea to create another package in the Linux 
world?  We already have incompatible RPMs, DEBs, klik packages, and 
Autopackages hoping to be distribution neutral.

There's immense technical challenges with app folders, I believe.  For 
example, .desktop files must be installed into a directory in $XDG_DATA_DIRS.  
So, the appfolder runtime will have to install the .desktop file into a 
directory in order for the application to appear in the window manager menus.

> A component for viewing installed apps, deinstalling them, and a
> daemon for detecting appfolder apps and starting an install process
> when you click on them or something will be components of bricklayer.
> As for abstracting a whole install/uninstall suite for ISV's, what
> other functions do you think we might need to abstract for ISV's
> concerning app integration? I don't really want to abstract the xdg
> tools or anything.

Oh, I feel we're going to have to, unfortunately.  Do FVWM support XDG? 
Actually, yes.  Does blackbox?  I don't think so.  What if a certain popular 
distribution simply packages things incorrectly and so _that_ particular 
version of that distribution doesn't fully support the XDG spec?

That happens ALL THE TIME.

e.g., http://plan99.net/~mike/blog/2006/04/03/icon-caches/

> > > I agree with the commercial side of things, since this will be a way
> > > ot distribute binary apps only. What sort of thing did you mean,
> > > though?
> >
> > Well, I wanted to see whether we agree on the issue of binary-only,
> > commercial applications.  I think we see eye-to-eye that commercial,
> > binary applications should be given first-class status in whatever
> > specifications, documents, and software we write.
> I agree - the LDML is based on this. Also, I want to bring in an
> implementation of the driver-on-demand idea at a later stage when I
> can start writing the LDML (it was another project utopia idea that
> unfortunately dried up around the end of 2004).

Question: do you think the LDML will be overwhelmed by the technical problems 
associated with creating a stable API for the Linux kernel?

> This platform should be for anyone who wants to create an application
> and have it work on 'Linux', doesn't matter if they're commercial -
> the more we can entreat commercial companies to port their stuff from
> windows to Linux, and under some sort of sane standard instead of
> getting a 1st year CS student to write it for them in motif, the
> better =)

Haha, yes, truly.

Well, thanks for the reply!  I'm looking forward to hearing your response.

Karl Pietrzak

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