[botswanapredatorforum] Re: Report on Setata Fence

  • From: Dereck Joubert <wildfilm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <botswanapredatorforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:29:33 +0200

Dear Richard,
Allow me to answer within yours...in bold, forgive the potential that it may
thus seem aggressive. It is not.

On 8/2/08 09:44, "Richard White" <rhwhite@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I never cease to be astounded that supposedly intelligent people can continue
> to write this sort of nonsense.
> Overestimation of my intelligence my be the real issue here!  But to be
> productive let¹s deal with the content without getting personal. You have an
> opinion of my supposed intelligence (thank you) but I am afraid I don¹t know
> you, so I¹ll take yours at face value.
> For example:-
>> "the average ?poisoner¹ has not had access to lion  shooting for many years
>> now" 
>> I still believe this...I think the point was to answer a question about how
>> the ?recent¹ ban would effect poisoning.
>> Stock owners don't hunt lions for fun (=sport).  It's a necessity so they are
>> shot or poisoned whether licenced or  not.
>> Agreed, see we do agree, but the legal status of that has not changed
>> ?recently¹ so do we expect to see an increase in response to the ?recent¹ ban
>> as a result? I don¹t, but maybe I am missing something crucial.
>> "Hunting simply propagates the same old mentality of  ridding the bush of
>> predators"
>> Hunting can generate cash which is much more  effective at changing mindsets
>> than any amount of "education", (Well do you really believe that? We
>> understand that wealthy people have the luxury of tolerance, but in this
>> case, can we assume that you can throw some cash at someone and hope that the
>> correct education will sort of  find itself?)  especially  where the
>> "educators" are cuturally completely alienated from the audience. (Here is a
>> great point, which is why we have a program in Kenya and plans for one in
>> Rwanda where the educators are Maasai, (and Rwandan) who are very much part
>> of the community. It can be done, and is being done but as you rightly say,
>> we need to be aware of the cultural divide. It does not mean that we
>> shouldn¹t try because we think that cash is king. In many places I have found
>> that people value education for their kids more highly than many other modern
>> amenities, and the drive to get money and work is often with the added note
>> of ³so we can get education for our children.² Now if we ignore that, and the
>> opportunity to get environmental issues onto the agenda, we really do only
>> have ourselves to blame. )   Sport hunting (i.e. killing animals for fun),
>> subsistence hunting and killing  animals in defence of life or property each
>> involve a different  mindset and mental approach by the "hunter". (Absolutely
>> agree.) Each is as different as  chalk from cheese from the others and
>> treating them as  single entity is  counter productive. ( Agreed again, the
>> result of course is much the same but they are two different notions.) The
>> notion that 'hunting' is not part of nature is  nonsense - humans evolved as
>> hunter-gatherers (Yes you are right of course. My mistake, I assumed that
>> readers would know that what I was talking about was modern day hunting of
>> both varieties, by humans, not hunting as in predation, and not try to find
>> loop holes in the semantics, but to rather agree with or disagree with the
>> idea. However to clear that up...It is a little naïve to suggest that the
>> activities and impact of hunter gathers and modern day hunting are the same
>> isn¹t it? The introduction of weaponry as a start distinguishes the two and
>> it  is well documented that the major changes in wildlife numbers in Africa
>> came about around the time of the introduction of guns. We could argue that
>> to return to those instinctual days would require hunting with self made
>> spears etc etc to simulate the Zen like experience of being a part of nature
>> in that way...but the point is really that we have passed that threshold of
>> population impact, where if we all went out and hunted like our ancestors
>> even with wooden spoons, the impact would be much greater than it was then.
>> It¹s different now, where hunters are talking on cell phones as they drive
>> down a leopard with a Pajero, on a cattle post. I¹m sure you can see that.
>> It¹s a debate that can go nowhere.)   and what do Lions do for a  living?
>> (Well they...
>>  a) don¹t hunt to accumulate trophies on the wall,
>> b) use firearms, poison etc,
>> c) with dwindling numbers (20,000) they also don¹t quite have the impact that
>> 7 billion of us have,
>> d) they tend to eat almost everything they kill, not trade in it (for a
>> living) so presumably it¹s a completely (again chalk and cheese) different
>> variety of hunting that I am sure you can¹t reasonable, or intelligently,
>> make the case for a parallel at all . I don¹t know what is in a lion¹s mind
>> but I am sure that it can¹t be entertainment (recreational hunting) or
>> eradication (cattle protection hunting.)  However I am sure you were just
>> being flippant and we should move on. I don¹t want to appear argumentative
>> either so forgive me. )
> While I agree that Lion predation on the overall scale has negligible impact
> on the livestock industry, the impact on individual herd owners can be
> devastating. To cite an example:- Many years ago, my father had friends who
> had a dairy farm on the Athi Plains within (lion) walking distance of the
> Nairobi National Park. The old man had a clear policy that any lion which came
> to the farm was promptly shot and losses (to both lions and cattle) were kept
> in bounds. When his son took over, he decided to tolerate the lions. In short
> order, he found himself losing two pedigree Jersey cows a week. No enterprise
> can sustain that level of loss and the lions, most of a pride, had to be shot.
> Every stock farmer knows this, hence the attitude.
> (Okay so, getting into it seriously then, are we to write off predators in an
> ever increasing pattern as livestock increases, (as it will) because in
> essence, livestock and predators are unlikely to co exist. We have some
> involvement in a project in Kenya where we are trying to make it an easier
> relationship (by paying compensation, education on good livestock protection
> mechanisms etc,) but if the moral of this story of yours is to go by, then we
> are doomed, (or our plight to save predators from extinction) because
> livestock (and man) will never co-exist, long term with things that threaten
> them. Hunting in these areas (again long term) in marginal areas, serves the
> purpose of ridding the land of predators in most cases, (historically and in
> modern times.) That is why tourism is often suggested, (in appropriate areas)
> as one solution, not only because it creates revenues, but it also creates an
> alternative to a cattle dependency, and exposure to other ways of life beyond
> that. It isn¹t the ?save all¹ solution and I personally have some reservations
> about this. I keep reaching for other solutions and would really like to move
> this to finding or experimenting with something that can win us a compromise
> where on the fringes of sanctuaries, or more accurately on the fringes of the
> advance line of development, predators can still exist, and we can lessen the
> agony of cattle owners in these areas. While my concerns are that we have
> diminishing predators, (ultimately the survival of ALL predators now depends
> on how we as a species tolerate them or not) it is also about getting to a
> level as fast as possible where human death and suffering as a result of our
> natural competitors in nature, can be prevented completely. We have a small
> human population in Botswana. If we can¹t get right, none of the other more
> conflict laden countries in Africa will.
> We are on the cusp of a change over in management styles of technique from a
> hunting dominated era to a more varied and maybe softer range of methods,
> tourism being one of them. Has this passing era made it better or worse?
> The biggest immediate threat to Lion populations is the capture of cubs to
> supply the canned lion hunting industry in South Africa (canned lion hunting
> has started in Botswana too). (Well the traffic in lions in a Botswana context
> on any noticeable scale is indeed news to me, and we should not be indulging
> this at all. If this is the biggest threat, then let¹s get it closed ASAP, The
> lioness is almost always shot. Staff within DWNP are deeply implicated as are
> some politically well connected people. I have sent a detailed dossier with
> names, dates, telephone numbers, money paid, numbers of cubs etc, etc, to the
> highest in the land but nothing effective is being done. (Can you get it to
> me? I am happy to assist in this, my limited  intelligence not withstanding.)
> Dereck
> Richard White
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:  Dereck  Joubert <mailto:wildfilm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: botswanapredatorforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:26  PM
>> Subject: [botswanapredatorforum] Re:  Report on Setata Fence
>> Hello Pete, Mark,
>> I don¹t ever understand the logic  behind and the knee jerk reaction to a
>> lion ban possibly increasing poisoning  in today¹s conditions. The people who
>> have been stopped from hunting recently  are the safari hunters and the
>> average ?poisoner¹ has not had access to lion  shooting for many years now.
>> If we add hunting in again, the same guys will  poison for the same reasons
>> they do now. In essence, man and in particular  livestock man, has limited
>> tolerance for things that eat livestock, and they  feel as though they can do
>> what they can about diseases...AND predators., so  they do. Reducing conflict
>> takes a major mind set change. Tourism does that  (good examples out of Duba
>> Vumbura etc) Hunting simply propagates the same old  mentality of ridding the
>> bush of predators (on a sliding scale of  effectiveness.) It is time, and
>> actually it has been happening fairly well, to  put effort behind education
>> and tourism initiatives that change that  perspective from ³use, fight,
>> resist, be a apart from  nature ² to  something more akin to becoming part of
>> it and seeking passive benefits, of  which there are many, from nature.
>> I believe that we  have two distinct issues. Hunting, and poisoning, and the
>> two are not related  now to any great degree.
>> I believe that the call for a hunting ban is a  response to the plight of all
>> big cats globally, (all are in serious decline)  and even if we take a small
>> hit ourselves, we need to think about the larger  picture, one of which is
>> the PR attached to Botswana¹s ban, which can ripple  on to many markets
>> across the world, as a message that we all have a problem.  It highlights the
>> issue and stirs action in countries that care less than we  do here.
>> I want to understand the  CKGR situation more though, and in  particular the
>> trade you mention Mark. That I am sure we can stop.
>> Also I  am in the field right now, and don¹t have the act with me, but what
>> is Section  46 please? I think we can work that as well if it is  the one
>> logjam you  elude to.
>> All the best
>> Dereck
>> On 6/2/08 14:00, "Mark Bing"  <bing@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Hi  Pete
>>> My opinion is that it is not a bad interim idea, till something  else can be
>>> set in place that is a lot better than a total ban. It has its  place to
>>> place a breathing space till a better solution is found.
>>> The  problems are twofold as I see it. In Kweneng, one of the problem areas,
>>> there were 48 Lion shot in a 12 month period, and between April and July
>>> 2007, if I am not mistaken 12 were shot South of Khutse, including 3
>>> collared animals. Killing collared cats is not permitted, yet it goes on,
>>> sadly at the researchers expense. All Lion research in Khutse has ground to
>>> a halt, as on last count there were only about 6 lion left in the park,
>>> which affects tourism and so on. The problem is that the cattle posts around
>>> khutse, and indeed kaudwane Village is very close, so this is a high
>>> conflict area. In this case a resolution could be found i am sure from the
>>> Professional hunting community. I am sure that in 2 to 3 years time, the
>>> lion population may have recovered enough to hunt in Kweneng, and if a
>>> hunter came forward from their association and offered to hunt an animal or
>>> 2 in the area, and give the monies ( trophy fee)  to a local NGO in the
>>> area, for development, the area would be more tolerant to Lion. Some of this
>>> monies could go to compensation provided animals are herded and so on. I
>>> think the hunting community needs to be more proactive here.
>>> The second  problem is the fast rush of animals ( Cheetah and Lion Cubs),
>>> that are going  over the border to NW, from the Kalahari. Lionesses are
>>> shot, and cubs are  captured. I have seen a person at the clinic in Verda
>>> who came off second  best in moving a cub too large. This problem is
>>> complex, but is accounting  for a serious sink in the cat populations in
>>> some areas. This trade gives a  few individuals gains in the short term, but
>>> is not good long term for  Botswana. It is a serious threat to the
>>> Transkalahari corridor.
>>> I agree  with you that poisoning becomes a problem, but since 2007 there are
>>> much  more severe strict laws concerning use of poisons, so should anybody
>>> be  caught indescriminantly using them, they can get a lengthy jail term.
>>> Unfortunately again DWNP does not police areas outside their jurisdiction (
>>> ie wildlife areas), so, in Ghanzi and the hyaenaveld, probably the central
>>> range for breeding Lappets, poisons are used frequently, usually Temek. The
>>> bird club as you are aware has been debating the vulture poisoning issues,
>>> which we agree are serious, and we need to address the Ghanzi Farmers assn
>>> on this. I think there will be poisoning hotspots identified, Ghanzi,
>>> Hyaenaveld, Kweneng. And truthfully there has always been poison usage
>>> there. 
>>> Now if section 46 of the national parks act were revoked, the  DWNP could
>>> get a better conviction rate. BUT WEVE SPOKEN TILL WE ARE BLUE IN  THE FACE
>>> Farmer  Education is central to the Lion Hunting ban, and the Poisoning of
>>> Endangered birds ( Vultures) in this case, as well as the cascade of Raptors
>>> like Tawnys, Bateleurs etc that get poisoned with them. There is a Rabies
>>> outbreak in some areas of the country at present. Rabies is disseminated
>>> amongst Jackal when they are shot on farms, or poisoned, and territories
>>> become available to fight over. On a farm where jackal are left, territories
>>> are stable and boundary demarkation is by scat and urine. There is very
>>> little fighting. Not so when Jackal are poisoned and shot. In Zimbabwe I had
>>> a pedigree Charolais breeder loose 9 bulls to rabies in one year, due to
>>> severe poisoning of Jackal on his farm. When he stopped teh practise the
>>> rabies slowly disappeared. This information is needed in Ghanzi, where
>>> jackel are always poisoned, and it is these poisonings that tend to kill
>>> lappets. 
>>> I do not think many communal cattle post owners poison much, and  the
>>> Vulture will tell them when animals are dieing, so they can retrieve the
>>> meat.
>>> These are just my opinions as usual. None of these issues are  easily
>>> resolved. DWNP needs to be more vigilant, but has little capacity,  and is
>>> not really interested in the farming areas. Farmers often dont want  to see
>>> long term implications to an action either. I dont think telling a  ghanzi
>>> Farmer that the Endangered cape Vultures he just poisoned came from
>>> Namibia, and the cape would mean much either. He loves his cows and will
>>> exterminate all threats.
>>> Strangely  though, a farmer will vaccinate his cows for Botulism every year,
>>> and incur  a P4000 cost in doing so, and may still loose a few. These
>>> expenses and  losses are accepted. He may dip his herd through summer and
>>> incur a P50 000  cost. But he will accept losses  from gall sickness, as no
>>> system is  perfect. When it comes to losses from jackal though, he will not
>>> spend any  money, and will blast away at all jackals seen ( just like 4
>>> generations  before him have done). There will be no herder or guard dog, so
>>> no expenses  are incurred and the reaction to the jackal is greater than his
>>> reaction to  botulism. ( both in time and money) The fact that his
>>> management preference,  that is killing all jackal has not worked seems
>>> irrelevant. However, if a  farmer chooses not to dip his cows every year,
>>> and looses 10% of his herd a  year, and 20% due to udder problems, and keeps
>>> up like that for 4  generations, he would go bancrupt. He would change his
>>> management technique  to cope with the situation. Only wish farmers would
>>> see predators as part of  the picture with farming, like disease, and
>>> calving problems. Preventing  losses, rather than scattering poison and
>>> shooting and trapping will  work.
>>> Hope this is useful Pete
>>> MArk
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From:  birdlife <mailto:birdlifemaun@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: botswanapredatorforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:32   AM
>>>> Subject: [botswanapredatorforum] Report   on Setata  Fence
>>>> Hi  Rebecca,
>>>> Please could you send  me a copy of the  report on the proposed Setata
>>>> Fence. I am on asdl and so  shouldn¹t  have any problem receiving a 1.22MB
>>>> file with pics and maps. Thank   you for keeping us informed on this and
>>>> other   issues.
>>>> Does the Predator  Forum have a viewpoint on  the lion hunting ban? At
>>>> BirdLife, we are concerned  that the ban may  lead to increased poisoning
>>>> of predators and also vultures,  most of  which are globally threatened.
>>>> This happened following the previous   ban a few years ago. I know it is
>>>> not possible to keep everyone  happy all the  time, but would appreciate
>>>> your views on the issue so  that we know where you  stand.
>>>> Kind  regards
>>>> Pete
>>>> From:   botswanapredatorforum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:botswanapredatorforum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]  On Behalf Of David
>>>> Mosugelo
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 04,  2008 2:13  PM
>>>> To:   botswanapredatorforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject:  [botswanapredatorforum] Re: Fw:  Report on Setata  Fence
>>>> Hello  Rebecca
>>>> Happy New Year! Could  you please send me a  copy with maps! I¹d be very
>>>> greatful.
>>>> Thanks
>>>> David
>>>> From:   botswanapredatorforum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:botswanapredatorforum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]  On Behalf Of Rebecca
>>>> Klein
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 30,  2008 11:55  AM
>>>> To:   botswanapredatorforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject:  [botswanapredatorforum] Fw:  Report on Setata Fence
>>>> Dear all, 
>>>> Happy New Year!
>>>> Ive been asked to circulate this  report on  the proposed Setata Fence to
>>>> the Predator Forum.
>>>> All pictures have been removed due  to size.  If you would like a copy of
>>>> the document with maps send me an email   and I'll send onto you. It is
>>>> 1.22MB in total.
>>>> This development is of great  concern and we  would welcome any comments!
>>>> Please forward to anyone who may  benefit  from this information.
>>>> Best wishes for  2008.
>>>> Rebecca
>>>> Cheetah Conservation  Botswana
>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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>> 3:45 PM

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