No Roger. I'm not trying to antagonize you. I'm saying that there are a lot of
intelligent, educated people who don't consider Marxist theory a scientific
explanation of economics and history. There are some who do and some who do
not. So the fact that the people who do, think as they do about Marxism,
doesn't prove that it is the one and only and scientific explanation. It may
very well be, but that is not something on which there is general agreement.
However,for example, everyone agrees that physics is a science and that what
it tells us is accurate. So, people who think as you do about Marxism, share
the same belief or faith or philosophy. You may be correct, but your belief is
not generally shared.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2021 2:42 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: today's episode of Economic Update
Miriam, it has nothing to do with faith. Again - or should I say again and
again? - faith is the act of believing a given proposition or set of
propositions without any regard for evidence or reason. Again, that is not what
science is. Science is the study of reality, not made up claims to be accepted
on faith. Reality is something that anyone can observe.
When anyone can observe it it is hard to get away with making false claims
about it for long. I am beginning to think I see some of your motive. It is
getting to look more and more like that it is not that you do not understand,
but rather, that you are just trying your best to get under my skin.
___
Carl Sagan “It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between
two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are
served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas. Obviously
those two modes of thought are in some tension. But if you are able to exercise
only one of these modes, whichever one it is, you’re in deep trouble. If you
are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn
anything new.
You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling the world.
(There is, of course, much data to support you.) But every now and then, maybe
once in a hundred cases, a new idea turns out to be on the mark, valid and
wonderful. If you are too much in the habit of being skeptical about
everything, you are going to miss or resent it, and either way you will be
standing in the way of understanding and progress. On the other hand, if you
are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense
in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful as from the worthless ones.” ―
Carl Sagan On 4/10/2021 10:12 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,or economics. I could tell you about how it worked, but I wouldn't be
I don't think that my talking about adoptions is anything like what
you're doing. Adoptions was a field of work in which I specialized for
many years. It was not a way of viewing human behavior or interpreting
history
As for the rest of what you said, I remember that once you asked me why
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 9, 2021 9:57 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: today's episode of Economic Update
If all the nuclear weapons were set off that would be a game changer.
Like I said, it may no longer be a matter of socialism or barbarism, but
rather, socialism or extinction. But my point is that the existence of
nuclear weapons and the threat of their use is not going to stop the class
struggle. If the human species is made extinct then that might stop it.
to new ideas. Obviously those two modes of thought are in some tension. But if
___
Carl Sagan “It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance
between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all
hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great
openness
You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is rulingworld. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) But every now and then,
the
because nuclear winter will end all life on earth.It doesn't matter if there are weapons of mass destruction? It
matters
that he thinks are insane. It's all exhausting, just too much for an old ladya simultaneous discussion with someone from another list who espouses
One of the things that happens when we begin to discuss things is
that you insist that I stick with your points and follow the
arguments of the philosophy in which you believe and I tend to rebel
and repeatedly stray from your line of reasoning. So at that point,
we can't continue to discuss the subject in a constructive manner. In
the same way that I could never be a member of a religion, I cannot
be an obedient Marxist. I'm having
"Democdracy and Capitalism" as if they were inseparable twins. He is
as annoyed with me as you are because I'm not obediently responding to
his logical arguments and I keep making statements about history and
the present
variables to keep track of. The chaos theorists call it the butterfly effect.Miriamviolence happens anyway and it really doesn't matter whether it is
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 9, 2021 3:31 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: today's episode of Economic Update
Syria started as demonstrations by peace loving people against an
autocratic government. That is exactly what I was saying. They don't
want to inflict violence and they don't want violence inflicted upon
them. But the
instigated by outside forces or not. It is still inevitable and it
doesn't matter if there are weapons of mass destruction involved or
not. It is still going to happen. So my point, again, is that we have
to make the best of it. We have to use these outbreaks of civil war or
other wars to guide the outcome into something that will build the
kind of society we would like to have. You just keep missing my point
over and over. As for your comments about those other countries, I may
have some quibbles with you, but to get into them would be doing the
same thing you are doing. That is, to stray from my own point and to
forget it. I will remind you of this, though, as I have reminded you
many times. No revolution is going to turn out exactly the way we want
it to. There is virtually nothing in this world that turns out
exactly the way we want it to. There are just too many
But if you are able to exercise only one of these modes, whichever one it is,As for your claim that you can understand why people would devotelives to these theoretical concepts, I don't think you understand at all.
their
How can you really understand if you just keep on missing the whole point of
those concepts?
to new ideas. Obviously those two modes of thought are in some tension.
___
Carl Sagan “It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance
between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all
hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great
openness
mark, valid and wonderful. If you are too much in the habit of being skepticalYou become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is rulingworld. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) But every now
the
and then, maybe once in a hundred cases, a new idea turns out to be on
the
movement and they sound beautiful and rational. I can understand why peopleRussia and China are beginning to gather other countries and set up aSyria started as demonstrations against an autocratic government by peaceThe US is stealing the oil and preventing the people from being fed.
loving people and was turned into something else by outside forces. The
country is being destroyed. Huge numbers of refugees have had to leave.
None of the other countries that you've mentioned have fared well
except for Cuba and in order for them to survive, the government had
to run an almost police state. Vietnam? What is it now except a
vassal of the west because the US dollar rules the world. The new,
hopeful development is that
financial competition against the US so that they can be more
independent politically. And you see what the result is. The US is now
inflating its war machine in order to remain the dominant power in the
world. What you have written is the set of theoretical concepts which
guide the socialist
forces of nature.rulers can easily squash them.Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 9:41 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: today's episode of Economic Update
Miriam wrote: "Sure, angry people can rise up, but the kind of power that
will be used against them is very different now."
It is not a matter of angry people rising up. Again, it is a matter
of taking steps to secure their rights and to defend themselves.
Again, when anyone sees that some people have power and privilege
and use that power to maintain that situation and to manipulate them
a certain amount of resentment builds up and the ones who do not
have the power and privilege will take steps, peaceful steps, to
attain justice. Not only is the effort peaceful, but it is most
likely to be perfectly legal according to the laws of their
oppressors. Depending on how many people are involved and depending
on how much pressure is exercised it may even have some success. In
fact, the concessions and the take backs may happen over a long
period of time. But it is when enough success has been accomplished
by the seekers of justice that the people with the power and
privilege see that they are in actual danger of being deposed that
all hell breaks loose. The ones who are fighting for justice do not
want to be shot at. They do not seek to be shot at or to shoot other
people. But they do defend themselves when they are attacked and
that is when a revolution happens. There may be adventurists who try
to circumvent this process, but adventurist movements fail because
they do not have the masses behind them and the
As for the power that can be used against them, well, look at some
of the places in the world where armed conflict has broken out recently.
The Syrian rulers have some pretty impressive power to use too and
they have been using it, but a civil war still broke out. Of course
it is not and never was a socialist revolution, but, like I said,
the revolution is what is inevitable. It has to be made a socialist
revolution if it is going to be a socialist revolution. Look to Vietnam.
Look to Algeria.
Look to Cuba. Look to the Congo. All relatively recent and with a
lot of deadly power to use against any revolution, but that did not
stop the revolution from happening. It is kind of like having a
hurricane bearing down on you. You can't stop it. It is going to be
destructive whether you like it or not. But those who prepare for it
fare better than those who claim that hurricanes are impossible and
do nothing about it. And a hurricane is not an uprising by angry
people or angry
balance
___
Carl Sagan “It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite
people are working for, just isn't in the cards.inbetween two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of allthings are very different now than they were. Sure, angry people can
hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great
openness to new ideas. Obviously those two modes of thought are in
some tension. But if you are able to exercise only one of these
modes, whichever one it is, you’re in deep trouble. If you are only
skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn
anything new.
You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling
the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) But
every now and then, maybe once in a hundred cases, a new idea turns
out to be on the mark, valid and wonderful. If you are too much in
the habit of being skeptical about everything, you are going to miss
or resent it, and either way you will be standing in the way of
understanding and progress. On the other hand, if you are open to
the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in
you, then you cannot distinguish the useful as from the worthless
ones.” ― Carl Sagan On 4/8/2021 9:04 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I understand what you are saying and what you've said in the past.
But
rise
up, but the kind of power that will be used against them is verycan be averted before they even begin. And in the past, society
different now than in the past because of advances in technology.
The uprisings
wasn't on the brink of climate catastrophe or threatened by nuclear weapons.
History can tell us about human behavior but it can't predict
outcomes. And
orthe past, the organizing was more effective because the populationare reaching. I understand your loyalty to the ideas. But my
hadn't been so thoroughly manipulated by the mass media and Big Tech
as it is now. Just look at the numbers that the tiny fragmented
socialist parties
pessimism,
is it realism?, tells me that the outcome for which you hope and
that
like the kingdom of heaven.Marxism. Sometimes when they are not teaching what you want to learn you justsocialist revolution. But the revolution itself is not something thatMiriamof revolutions have happened throughout history. We can look at them
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 8:22 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: today's episode of Economic Update
Revolutions are inevitable though. We have the historical record
that shows it. And it is not just that the historical record shows
that a bunch
and see under what circumstances they occurred and what led up to
them. We can see that it is always a matter of a class exploiting
another class and as long as that happens the resentments will build
up to make more revolutions happen. So, again as I have explained so
many times, it is not a matter of organizing the workers to have a
socialist revolution. It is a matter of organizing the workers when
there is a revolution to make it a socialist revolution. That is
another lesson we can learn from history. Not every revolution
against capital is a socialist revolution. In order for it to be a
socialist revolution there has to be a movement to make it a
happens at the direction of anyone. A lot of people have to
participate, but it may as well be regarded as a act of nature in
that no one actually wants a revolution and all the destruction that
it entails. They want their rights and then they want to defend
themselves. By the way, you mentioned
that you didn't study Marxist theory in college because of the times
when you attended college. Let me say that I never took a college
course that covered Marxist theory either. That is not to say that I
did not study Marxist theory when I was in college though. I also
never took a college class on evolutionary biology even if
evolutionary biology was an underlying assumption in all my college
biology classes. But I still graduated from college knowing quite a
bit about both evolutionary biology and
have to learn it on your own. That's what libraries are good for.
balance___
Carl Sagan “It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite
it is, you’re in deep trouble. If you are only skeptical, then no new ideashypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a greatbetween two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all
openness
new ideas. Obviously those two modes of thought are in some tension.
But if you are able to exercise only one of these modes, whichever
one
make it through to you. You never learn anything new.
4:44 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is rulingworld. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) But every
the
now and then, maybe once in a hundred cases, a new idea turns out to
be on the mark, valid and wonderful. If you are too much in the
habit of being skeptical about everything, you are going to miss or
resent it, and either way you will be standing in the way of
understanding and progress. On the other hand, if you are open to
the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in
you, then you cannot distinguish the useful as from the worthless
ones.” ― Carl Sagan On 4/8/2021
appear to me to be realistic. I think it is a beautiful dream, kindepisodes, is worker cooperatives. Now we have a bit of a problem theWhat he didn't talk about, is how to get from where we are to what
he's describing. And all he was talking about, and has talked
about in other
name of which, is reality. We are living in a world ruled by multi
national corporations that control nations which have military power.
So talking about organizing workers in order to have a socialist
revolution, does not
of
nobalance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny ofeveryone an employee of the state because it is a long range goal toMiriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 3:43 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: today's episode of Economic Update
I have not listened to that episode that you refer to, but based
on what you say you have learned from it that is what I have been
trying to tell you all along. For one thing, of course it is not a
program for making
actually abolish the state.
___
Carl Sagan “It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite
all
hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a greatBut if you are able to exercise only one of these modes, whichever
openness to new ideas. Obviously those two modes of thought are in some
tension.
one it is, you’re in deep trouble. If you are only skeptical, then
new ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything new.as from the worthless ones.” ― Carl Sagan On 4/8/2021 1:10 PM, Miriam Vieni
ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish theother hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have notmark, valid and wonderful. If you are too much in the habit of beingYou become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is
ruling the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.)
But every now and then, maybe once in a hundred cases, a new idea
turns out to be on the
skeptical about everything, you are going to miss or resent it, and
either way you will be standing in the way of understanding and
progress. On the
an
useful
about, today.Richard Wolff described his understanding of Marxism in this
episode and I'd suggest that anyone who has read Marx, listen to what he
says.
I have not read Marxist theory, or perhaps I read samples of it
in college courses. But given the fact that I attended college
from
1955 to 1959 while the cold war was at the center of our
country's consciousness, it's doubtful. As Wolff remarks, he
studied Economics and History at three Ivy League colleges and
his highly competent professors wouldn't touch the subject with a
ten foot pole. However, what I learned today from Wolff is that
the theory focuses on the class conflict that is inherent in the
capitalist workplace and the solution implied, is worker
cooperatives rather than employer/employee arrangements. The
theory does not involve state socialism because if the state is
the employer, the same employer/employee conflict may result. It
has nothing to do with government control or government
ownership. That is what Economic Update was
Miriam.