[blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)

  • From: "Roger Loran Bailey" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
  • To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 20:33:10 -0400


Let me give it a try. As a former agnostic I now see the error of my ways. It was an error in logic. Many times I have asked theists to tell me some reason to believe their claims. By reason I mean something that has to do with it being true, that is, evidence. Not one has ever been able to answer the question. But very frequently they shoot back with how do you know that there isn't a god? They are asking me to prove a negative. That is simply not a legitimate question. This time I will refrain from talking about the one chance in infinity that an unsupported claim might be true. I will simply point out that demanding a proof of a negative violates the rules of logic and that there are very good reasons that it does. That is not to say that nothing can be proved to be false. Many things have. It just simply is not necessary unless the positive proposition is expressed in a way that it can be falsified. Now let's look at agnostics. Agnostics are atheists. An atheist is just a person who lacks a belief in a deity, so an agnostic qualifies. However the agnostic makes the same logical fallacy the theist makes when the theist demands proof of a negative. The agnostic accepts the demand as legitimate, just as legitimate as the demand for proof of the positive assertion. The agnostic, of course, cannot prove the negative of the god hypothesis and already knows that the positive of that proposition cannot be proved. So he then regards the demand for proof of ether form of the proposition as equally valid. If they are equally valid that means that the probability of each is equal. That means that the probability of the existence of a god is fifty percent and the probability of the nonexistence of a god is fifty percent. A one half probability that a god exists is really high. If that is the probability then Pascal's wager becomes a pretty good bet. In fact, if I thought that there was a fifty percent likelihood that there is a god I might take Pascal's wager myself. I might have a hard time deciding which religion to join, but the best bet would be to choose one of them. But really, as an agnostic do you really think that the odds are even that there is a god? Somehow I doubt it. Consider furthermore what it would mean in so many other areas of life if proving a negative was just as legitimate as proving a positive. If that was the case we would all have to rearrange our lives in a lot of ways.
On 8/2/2017 3:51 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:

Abby,
As an avowed Agnostic, I neither attempt to convert others, nor fret
if others attempt to convert me.
I mean, how does one convert another person to Nothing?  I can see
myself springing out from the doorway, into the face of some
unsuspecting person, shouting, "Agnosticism sure loves you!"  and,
"Repent and let Nothing enter your heart!"
Probably not going to convert too many.
But at the same time, assuming some religious zealot leaps into my
space and demands, "Repent and ask Jesus into your heart!"  I simply
answer, "I already did that.  He entered into my heart months ago, and
I've not seen hide nor hair of Him since."
Yup, Agnosticism is like a big furry wrap around that protects you
from everything and nothing at all.
And it's light weight and never wrinkles!

Carl Jarvis

On 8/2/17, Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger,
I said God wasn't a part of your life.  It didn't occur to me that that
would include unwelcome efforts to convert you.  I have the same problem. In
recent times, my public appearances include a wheelchair pusher to get me
through malls and grocery stores.  More than once my assistant has had to
answer to those accusing him of not being attentive to my spiritual needs.
Interesting that Jesus told his disciples that blind people are not being
punished for their sins.  I do find myself having much in common with
atheists, in particular, their wanting to keep religion and government out
of each other's way.  Maybe some day an atheist will notice the physical
evidence of my spiritual status and welcome me to the fold.
Abby

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: (no subject)

Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is tough
to do.
Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first joined.
Or maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my Beliefs
without taking personal affront.  And yet, it does seem that we all are
better at it.
Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day we were
conceived.  Any criticism of any piece of that composite can be seen as a
personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity to open a discussion.
How we approach criticism determines whether it becomes a learning
experience or a pissing match.  Of course we can be shouted down with
profane curses, but rather than become offended or angered to the point of
returning the curses in triplicate, good judgement should tell us to simply
end the contact.
Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that humans
are causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway my opinion.
Do I really care whether some nameless email calls me stupid?  There's
nothing to be learned or discussed here.  I'll simply delete you and go
forward believing my more learned sources of information.  If I am wrong,
the planet will continue as it is.  But if I'm right, and we are
contaminating Earth beyond its ability to cleanse itself, then you will be
destroyed along with all of us, and your name calling will not save one
single hair on your head.
But I digress.
We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe.  Mostafa has given
me much information, mostly about the sort of person he is, but also
regarding his Faith.  Of course, as an Agnostic, I can't really enter into
conversation regarding religion, but I certainly can learn.
As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I would be
disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace his "true"
faith.  And I think that mostly, I have done this without putting him down.
I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side, making
all other beliefs evil.
In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
Divided we fall".  We are divided into little nations, each one better than
all others; little religions, each one better than all others; little racial
groups, each one better than all others.  And on and on and on.  After
thousands of years of this sort of nonsense, how can we rise to a higher
level, find the similarities and teaching Peace and Respect instead of anger
and hatred and violence?
Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the other
side.

Carl Jarvis




On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I
would rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the head
with it all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street for
going blind because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been followed
around and preached at even though I politely told the harasser that I
was not interested. For the most part these jerks have been Christian.
In fact, I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat me
over the head with his religion. But then, I have not known or
encountered very many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I have
been able to actually discuss their religion with them without their
becoming hysterical like so many Christians have. On line, though, it
is a bit different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo groups and
came across an announce only group about the Quran. I was a bit
curious and subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote from the Quran
and a commentary on it. After a while my curiosity was satisfied and I
unsubscribed. The next day I found myself subscribed again. After
several attempts to leave the list I contacted the list owner. I did
not hear back until I contacted him several more times. Finally I got
a reply telling me that I must remain subscribed because he was trying
to save me from the fire. Apparently he meant hell fire. Somehow I
finally talked him into letting me go. Does this behavior sound
familiar? Well, I am pretty sure that it was not Mustafa unless he
uses another Arab pseudonym, but interestingly enough this person was also
based in Egypt.
With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would behave
the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As much as I
would like religion to not be a part of my life it is imposed on me
anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do not back down
from them though. If they want to make fools of themselves I am glad
to help them along. And that is why I have been engaging with Mustafa.
I point out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he is
making himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he is
being when he complains about others being disrespectful to him. He is
encouraging the disrespect by being disrespectful himself. And, by the
way, when someone screams at a blind person on the street that god has
struck him blind because he turned his back on Jesus then that person
will probably experience some amount of disrespect too.

On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
Yes, and that's why I've been silent.  My religious beliefs are part
of my identity, my culture.  I choose not to defend them or say why
they are reasonable.  This is true of other aspects of my culture.  I
once had a working class friend whose parents threw her out of the
house when she turned 18.  She was offended by my father continuing
to send me money from beyond the grave.
I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
atheism.  If you don't hold a  belief in God, then God isn't a part
of your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.

Abby

-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Evans
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]

I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful
toward Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not their
beliefs.

I hope you get this.

You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people we
don't know.



On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and
I'm sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob
Evans, or Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion. If
Mustafa is disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are our non
believing list members who feel impelled to repeat over and over
again their reasons for thinking that religion is nonsense, and that
all believers are stupid and ignorant. One's religious identity is
part of one's personal identity. When, in the guise of intellectual
discussion, you attack an individual's religious belief,  it feels
to that person like a personal attack. For people on the political
left, who see themselves as defenders of humanity and civil
liberties, these attacks on other people's beliefs are
unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to fight back with stronger or
nastier language, when one feels attacked.
That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the
better part of valor.

Miriam









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