Dick,
Are you saying that it is wrong to criticize the people in our government
who used torture? If you are, I'd respond that it is unconstitutional to
use torture and it has been demonstrated to be ineffective in eliciting
useable information from its victims. I think that any American official or
military officer or military contractor who has tortured people should be
held accountable for commiting a crime.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Richard Driscoll
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 7:12 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump's Tough-Guy Talk on Torture Risks Real
Lives
Miriam:
I am perpetually amazed and astonished at how easy it is to criticize
others.
Richard
On 1/28/2017 2:45 PM, M Vieni wrote:
crime.
Mayer writes: "One difference between serving in the military and
being a pretend soldier at the New York Military Academy, where Trump
proudly led mock drills in snappy faux military uniforms, is that, in
the real thing, officers are drilled not just in marching formations
but also in the laws of war."
Trump says "I always felt that I was in the military," but real
officers are drilled in the laws of war, including the Geneva
Conventions and the Convention Against Torture. (photo: T.J.
Kirkpatrick/Redux)
Trump's Tough-Guy Talk on Torture Risks Real Lives By Jane Mayer, The
New Yorker DATE
In an interview with his biographer Michael D'Antonio, Donald Trump
explained that although he received a medical deferment rather than
serving in the war in Vietnam, "I always felt that I was in the
military." This was, as D'Antonio reported in "Never Enough: Donald
Trump and the Pursuit of Success," because he spent his high-school
years at a military-themed boarding school, not far from West Point.
Last Saturday, President Trump trumpeted his military expertise during
a visit to the C.I.A.'s headquarters, in Langley, Virginia, where he
praised his nominee to direct the C.I.A., Michael Pompeo, for being
first in his class at West Point. Then he digressed, noting, "I know a
lot about West Point. . . . Trust me, I'm, like, a smart person."
One difference between serving in the military and being a pretend
soldier at the New York Military Academy, where Trump proudly led mock
drills in snappy faux military uniforms, is that, in the real thing,
officers are drilled not just in marching formations but also in the
laws of war. These include the Geneva Conventions and the Convention
Against Torture, which impose absolute, unconditional bans on torture
and other forms of cruel and inhumane treatment of enemy combatants,
categorizing such conduct, under any and all circumstances, as a war
In an interview with ABC's David Muir, made available on Wednesday,feel it works."
Trump gave a cursory nod to those laws. Asked if he wanted U.S. forces
to use waterboarding, the President said that he would listen to his
advisers, but that he wanted to do everything "within the bounds of
what you're allowed to do legally" to "fight fire with fire." He told
Muir, "I have spoken, as recently as twenty-four hours ago, with
people at the highest level of intelligence, and I asked them the
question: Does it work? Does torture work? And the answer was yes,
absolutely." He added, with emphasis, "Do I feel it works? Absolutely I
The interview came on the same day that several news organizationsTrump's sentiments were clear.
published a draft executive order that, if signed, would command the
Trump Administration to review the possibility of reintroducing
C.I.A.-run "black site" detention camps for terror suspects and the
use of brutal interrogation techniques. These practices were used
during the early years of the War on Terror, but were shut down after
the Supreme Court declared them subject to prosecution. At the daily
White House press briefing on Wednesday, Trump's press secretary, Sean
Spicer, described the draft as "not a White House document." Still, it
was circulating through high levels of the government, and President
As any military expert could tell Trump, torture only increases thebolstered the American soldiers' morale.
danger that soldiers face. It produces false intelligence, increases
the risk that captured soldiers will themselves be tortured, and
undermines discipline and moral authority. This is a lesson that
George Washington knew well. As a general in the Revolutionary War, he
vowed that, unlike the British, who tortured their captives, this new
country would distinguish itself by its humanity toward enemy
combatants. Washington's order proved not just moral but also
practical. As David Hackett Fischer wrote in "Washington's Crossing,"
his Pulitzer Prize-winning history, Washington's superior treatment of
enemy captives fomented desertion among British and Hessian soldiers, and
Washington's enlightened orders formed the backbone of U.S. militaryOffice.
policy until the War on Terror. America didn't always live up to these
ideals, but it nonetheless valued them, and enshrined them in law. The
original copies of the Geneva Conventions are kept in a safe at the
State Department, signed by, among others, Winston Churchill, whose
bust Trump reportedly has chosen to give a place of honor in his Oval
The horrifying consequences of abandoning the high road are cataloguedthis area.
in the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence's 2014 report on the
C.I.A.'s use of torture during the Bush era. Daniel J. Jones, the
congressional staff member who was the lead author of the Senate
report, told me that, should Trump choose to read it, he would see
that "it clearly details how the C.I.A. internally came to the
conclusion that their interrogation program was ineffective-and that
the C.I.A. should not be operating detention sites."
As Trump readily admits, he doesn't feel he has time to read anything
lengthy, which would seem to preclude his absorption of the
five-hundred-page declassified summary of the Senate report, not to
mention the six-thousand-seven-hundred-page classified original. It
doesn't help, either, that the Obama Administration, in deference to
the wishes of the C.I.A., declined to hold anyone in the intelligence
community accountable for the Bush-era torture program. Obama instead
chose to, as he put it, "turn the page." Unfortunately, that has made
it all too easy for a new Administration to look to the old playbook.
These missteps, Jones said, "are just dumbfounding."
Luckily, if Trump were to sign the draft executive order, the decision
on whether to return to the brutal detention and interrogation
techniques that former Vice-President Cheney called "the dark side"
would not be made by the President alone. According to the draft, it
would be made in consultation with the Defense Secretary, the Attorney
General, and various leaders of the intelligence community. Congress
and the courts have major roles to play as well. And, while Trump may
have missed the lessons of recent history, several of his top
appointees are not just well informed but also have personal experience in
As the Times reported, James Mattis, Trump's Defense Secretary, likebrutal interrogation.
virtually every American military leader, is deeply opposed to the use
of torture and the mistreatment of enemy combatants. As a Major
General in Iraq, Mattis oversaw the swift court martial of U.S.
marines under his command who had killed a captured suspect during a
Trump seemed amazed to learn of Mattis's opposition to torture,had assisted in the secret program.
telling the Times, during a meeting with editors and reporters, that
Mattis had told him that a beer and a pack of cigarettes work better.
Trump's surprise was itself a surprise to anyone with a modicum of
understanding of American military history.
Daniel Coats, Trump's choice for National Intelligence director, has
also had a first-hand look at the costs of the C.I.A.'s former
detention and interrogation program. He served as George W. Bush's
Ambassador to Germany, and had to explain to Germany's Interior
Minister, Otto Schily, that the C.I.A. had made an embarrassing
mistake: it had "renditioned"-meaning kidnapped-the wrong German,
whisking him to a secret black-prison site and physically tormenting
him for five months. Coats convinced Schily not to press charges, and
to keep the intelligence fiasco secret, but, after being freed, the
mistaken suspect, Khalid El-Masri, won a suit in the European Court of
Human Rights, in Strasbourg. The court found that he had been
tortured, publicly shaming the C.I.A., and condemned the countries that
Scott Horton, a human-rights lawyer and advocate, predicts thatIsrael would be the logical candidates," he said.
reopening the C.I.A.'s program would present huge legal issues. "I
think they would do whatever they can to keep it out of the federal
courts, but it's likely they'd face troubles trying to do this
anywhere in Europe. North Africa and the Middle East are another
question. Where would Trump put these black sites? Morocco, Egypt, and
He also noted that "NATO is already under heavy pressure by Trump, butvalid.
the black-site regime will again test NATO's relationship with the U.S.
Previously, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, and Romania were among the
nations providing cover for C.I.A. torture and 'disappeared'
imprisonment. Will they be challenged to do this again?"
The answer is no, if John McCain, the Senate's best-known military
hero, has anything to say about it. Trump belittled McCain during the
campaign for having been captured during the Vietnam War, but McCain
now is in position to teach the President a thing or two about how
real soldiers think. Using Trump's favorite weapon-Twitter-McCain
fired back, "@potus can sign whatever executive orders he likes, but
the law is the law - we're not bringing back torture."
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. Error! Hyperlink reference not
crime.
Trump says "I always felt that I was in the military," but real
officers are drilled in the laws of war, including the Geneva
Conventions and the Convention Against Torture. (photo: T.J.
Kirkpatrick/Redux)
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trumps-dangerous-fantasies-abo
ut-tor
turehttp://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trumps-dangerous-fantasies
-about
-torture
Trump's Tough-Guy Talk on Torture Risks Real Lives By Jane Mayer, The
New Yorker DATE
n an interview with his biographer Michael D'Antonio, Donald Trump
explained that although he received a medical deferment rather than
serving in the war in Vietnam, "I always felt that I was in the
military." This was, as D'Antonio reported in "Never Enough: Donald
Trump and the Pursuit of Success," because he spent his high-school
years at a military-themed boarding school, not far from West Point.
Last Saturday, President Trump trumpeted his military expertise during
a visit to the C.I.A.'s headquarters, in Langley, Virginia, where he
praised his nominee to direct the C.I.A., Michael Pompeo, for being
first in his class at West Point. Then he digressed, noting, "I know a
lot about West Point. . . . Trust me, I'm, like, a smart person."
One difference between serving in the military and being a pretend
soldier at the New York Military Academy, where Trump proudly led mock
drills in snappy faux military uniforms, is that, in the real thing,
officers are drilled not just in marching formations but also in the
laws of war. These include the Geneva Conventions and the Convention
Against Torture, which impose absolute, unconditional bans on torture
and other forms of cruel and inhumane treatment of enemy combatants,
categorizing such conduct, under any and all circumstances, as a war
In an interview with ABC's David Muir, made available on Wednesday,feel it works."
Trump gave a cursory nod to those laws. Asked if he wanted U.S. forces
to use waterboarding, the President said that he would listen to his
advisers, but that he wanted to do everything "within the bounds of
what you're allowed to do legally" to "fight fire with fire." He told
Muir, "I have spoken, as recently as twenty-four hours ago, with
people at the highest level of intelligence, and I asked them the
question: Does it work? Does torture work? And the answer was yes,
absolutely." He added, with emphasis, "Do I feel it works? Absolutely I
The interview came on the same day that several news organizationsTrump's sentiments were clear.
published a draft executive order that, if signed, would command the
Trump Administration to review the possibility of reintroducing
C.I.A.-run "black site" detention camps for terror suspects and the
use of brutal interrogation techniques. These practices were used
during the early years of the War on Terror, but were shut down after
the Supreme Court declared them subject to prosecution. At the daily
White House press briefing on Wednesday, Trump's press secretary, Sean
Spicer, described the draft as "not a White House document." Still, it
was circulating through high levels of the government, and President
As any military expert could tell Trump, torture only increases thebolstered the American soldiers' morale.
danger that soldiers face. It produces false intelligence, increases
the risk that captured soldiers will themselves be tortured, and
undermines discipline and moral authority. This is a lesson that
George Washington knew well. As a general in the Revolutionary War, he
vowed that, unlike the British, who tortured their captives, this new
country would distinguish itself by its humanity toward enemy
combatants. Washington's order proved not just moral but also
practical. As David Hackett Fischer wrote in "Washington's Crossing,"
his Pulitzer Prize-winning history, Washington's superior treatment of
enemy captives fomented desertion among British and Hessian soldiers, and
Washington's enlightened orders formed the backbone of U.S. militaryOffice.
policy until the War on Terror. America didn't always live up to these
ideals, but it nonetheless valued them, and enshrined them in law. The
original copies of the Geneva Conventions are kept in a safe at the
State Department, signed by, among others, Winston Churchill, whose
bust Trump reportedly has chosen to give a place of honor in his Oval
The horrifying consequences of abandoning the high road are cataloguedthis area.
in the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence's 2014 report on the
C.I.A.'s use of torture during the Bush era. Daniel J. Jones, the
congressional staff member who was the lead author of the Senate
report, told me that, should Trump choose to read it, he would see
that "it clearly details how the C.I.A. internally came to the
conclusion that their interrogation program was ineffective-and that
the C.I.A. should not be operating detention sites."
As Trump readily admits, he doesn't feel he has time to read anything
lengthy, which would seem to preclude his absorption of the
five-hundred-page declassified summary of the Senate report, not to
mention the six-thousand-seven-hundred-page classified original. It
doesn't help, either, that the Obama Administration, in deference to
the wishes of the C.I.A., declined to hold anyone in the intelligence
community accountable for the Bush-era torture program. Obama instead
chose to, as he put it, "turn the page." Unfortunately, that has made
it all too easy for a new Administration to look to the old playbook.
These missteps, Jones said, "are just dumbfounding."
Luckily, if Trump were to sign the draft executive order, the decision
on whether to return to the brutal detention and interrogation
techniques that former Vice-President Cheney called "the dark side"
would not be made by the President alone. According to the draft, it
would be made in consultation with the Defense Secretary, the Attorney
General, and various leaders of the intelligence community. Congress
and the courts have major roles to play as well. And, while Trump may
have missed the lessons of recent history, several of his top
appointees are not just well informed but also have personal experience in
As the Times reported, James Mattis, Trump's Defense Secretary, likebrutal interrogation.
virtually every American military leader, is deeply opposed to the use
of torture and the mistreatment of enemy combatants. As a Major
General in Iraq, Mattis oversaw the swift court martial of U.S.
marines under his command who had killed a captured suspect during a
Trump seemed amazed to learn of Mattis's opposition to torture,had assisted in the secret program.
telling the Times, during a meeting with editors and reporters, that
Mattis had told him that a beer and a pack of cigarettes work better.
Trump's surprise was itself a surprise to anyone with a modicum of
understanding of American military history.
Daniel Coats, Trump's choice for National Intelligence director, has
also had a first-hand look at the costs of the C.I.A.'s former
detention and interrogation program. He served as George W. Bush's
Ambassador to Germany, and had to explain to Germany's Interior
Minister, Otto Schily, that the C.I.A. had made an embarrassing
mistake: it had "renditioned"-meaning kidnapped-the wrong German,
whisking him to a secret black-prison site and physically tormenting
him for five months. Coats convinced Schily not to press charges, and
to keep the intelligence fiasco secret, but, after being freed, the
mistaken suspect, Khalid El-Masri, won a suit in the European Court of
Human Rights, in Strasbourg. The court found that he had been
tortured, publicly shaming the C.I.A., and condemned the countries that
Scott Horton, a human-rights lawyer and advocate, predicts thatIsrael would be the logical candidates," he said.
reopening the C.I.A.'s program would present huge legal issues. "I
think they would do whatever they can to keep it out of the federal
courts, but it's likely they'd face troubles trying to do this
anywhere in Europe. North Africa and the Middle East are another
question. Where would Trump put these black sites? Morocco, Egypt, and
He also noted that "NATO is already under heavy pressure by Trump, but
the black-site regime will again test NATO's relationship with the U.S.
Previously, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, and Romania were among the
nations providing cover for C.I.A. torture and 'disappeared'
imprisonment. Will they be challenged to do this again?"
The answer is no, if John McCain, the Senate's best-known military
hero, has anything to say about it. Trump belittled McCain during the
campaign for having been captured during the Vietnam War, but McCain
now is in position to teach the President a thing or two about how
real soldiers think. Using Trump's favorite weapon-Twitter-McCain
fired back, "@potus can sign whatever executive orders he likes, but
the law is the law - we're not bringing back torture."
http://e-max.it/posizionamento-siti-web/socialize
http://e-max.it/posizionamento-siti-web/socialize
