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Home > Michael Moore: How I Moved from Supporting Bernie Sanders to Hillary
Clinton for President
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Michael Moore: How I Moved from Supporting Bernie Sanders to Hillary Clinton
for President
By Amy Goodman [1] / Democracy Now! [2]
November 7, 2016
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With the U.S. election only days away, Michael Moore has released a surprise
new film about Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton titled "Michael Moore in
TrumpLand." Democracy Now! sat down with the Academy Award-winning filmmaker
and talked about how he moved from supporting Bernie Sanders during the
primary to now supporting Hillary Clinton. "My hope was that on Tuesday we
would have the great decision
between the socialist and the billionaire,"
Moore says. On Clinton, he notes: "She is a hawk. She is to the right of
Obama. Thats the truth.
Were going to have to be active."
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We continue our conversation with Michael Moore, the Academy
Award-winning filmmaker. His latest film, an October surprise, its called
Michael Moore in TrumpLand. I asked him if hes ever met Republican
presidential hopeful Donald Trump.
MICHAEL MOORE: Ive only met him once, back in 1998. And theres aI think
there was a clip of that in the trailer there, where I was on a talk show
with him. And
AMY GOODMAN: Whose talk show?
MICHAEL MOORE: Roseanne Barr, after her series was over, had afor two
years, had an afternoon talk show. And she came to New York for a week at
Tavern on the Green, and she invited me to come on. And I get there, and
Donald Trump is the other guest. And the producer comes over to me and says,
"Um, Im reallyIm really sorry, but, um, Mr. Trump is very nervous about
you being on the show, and, um, he is afraid youre going to attack him.
And, um, uh"I said, "Let me talk to him. You know, hes sitting over in the
corner over there. Ill go talk to him." So I go over and introduce myself.
"Mr. Trump, Im Michael Moore. You know, I understand youre a little
worried. Theres nothing to worry about." You know, Iand this is '98, so I
don't know that much about Trump, right? You know, I justI know hes made
somebuilt some buildings. I said, "There no reason to bewere here to have
some fun with Roseanne. You dont have to worry." And Im shaking his hand,
and its all clammy. I mean, the guy is like so nervous. And Im likeyou
know, so I think my job is Ive got to calm him down. "Were going to be
fine. Well go out on the couch. Well have some fun." Im trying to help
the producer out, right? So he wontbecause theyre afraid hes going to
walk. And he goes, "No, no. Its justits just that, you know, uh, you
know, I just dont want to go out there and like, you know, because, you
know, I just"I said, "Dont, dont, dont, dont. Its not that kind of
show. Dont worry. Dont worry. Its OK." And so, we go out on the show,
and, again, I dontI dont go after him on anything. I just leave him
alone, you know. And when it was overand I didnt think this untiluntil
actually this past year, where I thought, "That guy is good, man. I got
played." He got me to not bring up any of his crap there on that show,
because he gotI felt sorry for him. And I thought, "This guy is good." This
guy didnt get to where he got by being stupid. He is not stupid. And I
thoughthe got me to not say anything political, do anything political, and
just have, you know, a little laugh fest on the couch there withon The
Roseanne Show.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, when you made this, it was right around the time the women
were coming forward saying he assaulted them, right?
MICHAEL MOORE: When themy movie, the new one right now?
AMY GOODMAN: It was just breaking. Yes.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, yes, yeah. Oh, yes. Actually, that performance that you
see in the film is literally four hours after the Billy Bush tape is
revealed. So I have just watched this tape. I havent heard any of the
pundits or anything. Ive just watched the tape, and now Im going to go out
on the stage. So, when you see the film, theres a portion of the film where
I talk about women of Hillarys age and women of that generation, who grew
up inessentially, the first feminists of the modern feminist era in the
'60s and early 70s, and what they went through to be feminists and the crap
that they had to take as a result of that. And so, now, when I watch the
film, I know what's playing in my head is I just had watched this god-awful
conversation that Trump was having with Billy Bush. And it was so vile and
soyou know, I mean, letsOK, lets be honest. Theres nothing he said on
that tape that was surprising, that, you know, "Oh, I cant believe Donald
Trump said these things." You know, no. And I wasnt surprised by Billy
Bush, Ws first cousinright?that he was actually trying to pimppimp Trump
out there when they got out. Oh, it was just awful. You know, it was like
somebody last year went to Dr. Frankenstein and said, "Listen, we want to
create a candidate that embodies all the worst traits of men, rich people
and white people, and put them all into one candidate." And then here we
have Donald J. Trump. But anyway, so Im thinkingif you go back and watch
that tape, OK, we know the vile comments, we know the attitude, we know now
hes a confessed sexual predator. But its when he tries to get off the bus.
He goes down. He doesnt know how to get off the bus. He knockslook at the
tape. He knocks on the door of the bus. And I went, "Oh, my god! This is the
first time in his life hes ever been on a bus. This man has never ridden
the bus." Right there, that should be a disqualifier for being president of
the United States. No president shouldwe should never elect anybody whos
never ridden on a friggin bus. So, it was just the whole thing. And then I
went out on the stage and performed and filmed this piece.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, lets go in a different direction to the part of Michael
Moore in TrumpLand where you talk about Beyoncés halftime performance at
the Super Bowl.
MICHAEL MOORE: I predict anthropologists, they will know the moment it
happened, when it was clear the men were on the way out and the women were
on their way in. And it was the Super Bowl this past year. You know, its
halftime show. Coldplay is playing one of their nice songs. "Ooh, I love you
a lot, ooh, ooh." And then Bruno Mars came on, and then that sort of
confused a lot of guys watching the halftime show. "Ooh, what is this?" And
then, all of a sudden, right in the middle of Brunos song, out comes
Beyoncé and 500 women in these uniforms, with their fists clenched and
raised, and their [bleep]-kicking boots on, taking the field. "Oooh!" Its
like, "Oh, mywait! Thats our game! Whats she doing here?" Thats where
were ending up. And guys know it. And thats why theyre at the Trump
rallies. Thats why you hear that sound. "Woooaaaaaaaaah! Woooooah! Donald,
save us! The women are coming!"
AMY GOODMAN: Michael, what was the response in the audience?
MICHAEL MOORE: It was well received, even by the guys. Evenbecause the guys
know it. The guyssee, the guyslisten, this isnt justthis isnt a new
thing, where women are in charge or that women areyou know, I mean, we
gradually now20 percent of our Congress is female, so the majority gender
now has 20 percent of the power, even though they are 51 percent of the
population. So, but men have had to get used to this, I think, after a
while. But some of the guys are having a very hard time with it. And even
Obama referenced them a couple days ago, where, you know, he said, "Guys,
you know, I know this is something youre not used toa woman in the White
House. Two hundred and forty years, weve done it one way." So, sometimes,
you know, people are a little nervous about change, and theyre used toyou
know, they want it a certain way. But you know what? These guys who have a
problem with Hillary, with women in general, theyre going to have to get
over it. Just like when you and I were growing upI remember my parents
taking me on a trip to the South, and I saw signs that said "whites only"
and "colored only" and all that. And then there was a law, and they had to
take the signs down, and things changed. Racism didnt go away, but the
proponents of it and the people that held power with these attitudes either
had to change or move out of the way, because a new generation was coming
up. Thats whats so great about this generation now, young people, 18 to
35, the Bernie revolution, is that they are the ones in charge now. Theyre
going to be in charge. And Im very optimistic about this, becausebecause
every year 3 million 17-year-olds turn 18, which means theyre voters. And
in these next four years before the next presidential election, theres
going to be 12 million more young voters. And theyre not haters. You know,
theythe majority of these young people arethats why theyre driving this
whole thing. Its why we have a different society now that is not so hateful
to gay people and to people of color and that. Doesnt mean thats gone
away, but its better because we have young people now, you know, steering
the car a little bit here.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think if the media had nothad given as much time to
Bernie Sanders as they did to Donald Trump, had given as much time to Bernie
Sanders as they did to the openthe empty podium when they were waiting for
Donald Trump for all the months of the primary, had played a few of Bernies
speechesI mean, he was getting more people to his speeches without the help
of the media megaphone than even Donald Trump was, and certainly Hillary
Clinton was. And you see how far Bernie went. Do you think it is possible
that it would have been very different, since they both represented
something outside the system?
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I mean, my hope was
that, on Tuesday, we would have the great decision, the choice, between the
socialist and the billionaire. I mean, that
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think he is a billionaire?
MICHAEL MOORE: Well, he likes to call himself that. And, you know, sometimes
you have to humor people that think they have things they dont have. You
know, so, yes, Ill justIll let him, you know, out of respect for him as a
human being. No, I think, listenoh, my god. I mean, of course, I worked
very hard for Bernie. I went up to Burlington and campaigned for him in
1990, when he first won for Congress. You know, I was the only like
quasi-known person at that time who would go up there and campaign for him.
And so Ive known him a long time. And, man, we won 22 states in the
primaries and caucuses this year. I tell my, you know, fellow Bernie voters,
"Hey, I know were all kind of bummed about this and, you know, the DNC
cheaters"cheaters, you know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, you know, all
theyou know, there will be more that will come out. Were going to learn a
lot more on what they did to him. But well set that aside for a moment, and
just likeweve got to feel some joy and celebrate what we accomplished: 22
states, in our lifetime, voted for a socialist. That was just an amazing
thing to have happen. And then the candidate who gets nominated, Hillary
Clinton, she adopts over two-thirds of his platform
AMY GOODMAN: Like?
MICHAEL MOORE: as part of herwell, she puts it in her own words, in terms
of raising the minimum wage. She doesnt say, you know, "free college," she
says "debt-free college." You know, go down the list of things, though, in
terms of paid maternity leave, women being paid the same as menall these
issues that we care about. We didnt get everything that we wanted, but we
got a lotlisten, I mean, 1998, I worked for Jesse Jackson when he ran for
president. And he won the Michigan primary. He won a lot of primaries.
People forget this. But Dukakis was the nominee. How muchhow much of
Jesses platform did Dukakis put in as part of his? Nah, I dont remember
anything. So, we were able to move the ball down the field. Hillary didnt
goshe didnt become more conservative as a Democrat, she became more
liberal. She
AMY GOODMAN: Well, she was running in the primaries.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes. And, welland now shes not going to win without us on
Tuesday. Thats the bottom line. And shes not going to win without young
people, because heres one thing that we know now. We know how African
Americans are going to vote. We know how Hispanics are going to vote.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you concerned polls say that
MICHAEL MOORE: We know how women are going to vote.
AMY GOODMAN: not as many African Americans are going out in early voting as
it was expected?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes. Thats whythats why today Hillary Clinton is going to
Detroit, when she shouldnt have to go there, but she has to go there,
because in Detroitone of the polls I read from Detroit is that she had lost
11 points of African-American voters in Detroit. Not that theyre going to
Trump, but just theyre probably not going to vote. Yes, theres a huge fire
siren going off in the Clinton campaign, because, once again, theyve
ignored certain constituencies that they shouldnt have ignored, and they
took it for granted. And they treated Bernie very poorly during the
primaries about somehow she was for African Americans and he wasnt, or, you
know, whenI mean, his whole history, from the time he was in college
getting arrested at civil rights demonstrations, you know, and when she, in
her freshman year, shes the head of the college Republicans. So, I felt bad
for him that he just had to suffer through all those things he did as a
young person to stand up, you know, when it wasnt popular, in 1963, to
stand up for certain things.
AMY GOODMAN: Lets go to another clip of Michael Moore in TrumpLand. This
ones about Hillary Clinton.
MICHAEL MOORE: I got a surprise for you tonight. Someone from the Trump
campaign has leaked us a copy of their new ad.
NARRATOR: The diseases, shes had them allpneumonia, hypo-thyroidism,
allergies, yeast infection, urinary tract discomfort, pregnancy, child
birth, time of month disorder, bleeding from wherever disease and menopause.
Do you want a commander-in-chief whose lady parts are out of control? Or do
you want a fit, buff leader, who will be the healthiest president ever.
Ever! Even healthier than Teddy Roosevelt, and he was shot in the chest.
Yes, theres only one candidate this year healthy enough to spawn an entire
new breed of humans. Vote Trump. He never gets sick.
DONALD TRUMP: I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot
somebody, and I wouldnt lose any voters, OK?
NARRATOR: Now, thats sick!
DONALD TRUMP: Im Donald Trump, and I so approve this message.
MICHAEL MOORE: Effective. I think hes going to do really well.
AMY GOODMAN: Michael Moore?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, you know, I was elected class comic when I was a senior
in high school. Ive used it well, I hope.
AMY GOODMAN: But hes doing much better than you might have thought, right?
Especially now, even since you gave these speeches in Ohio.
MICHAEL MOORE: Well, yes. I mean, Ive said, since the summer, people should
take him seriously. I said a year and a half ago, when he announced, this is
going to be the Republican nominee for president. Its probably because I
watch a lot of TV, so Im one of the few people on the left that actually
watched Celebrity Apprentice. You know, I watch American Idol. But I know
how Americans are, when they comewhen it comes to voting. Everybody thinks
Jennifer Hudson won American Idol. She didnt. Fantasia won. You know,
peoplewho remembers Fantasia now, right? But this is what can happen when
Americans vote. You know, I watched The Bachelorette last year. Kaitlyn,
everybody thought she was going to go for Nick; instead, she went for Shawn.
Im just saying, stuff can happen in this country.
AMY GOODMAN: And in elections, the surprises that youve lived in your
lifetime?
MICHAEL MOORE: I was stunned that a B actor whose co-star was a chimpanzee
could get elected presidenttwice. He was called "Tricky Dick" before he was
electedtwice. Then W, you know, who wasnt elected.
AMY GOODMAN: But wait. First youre talking about Ronald Reagan.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Then youre talking about Richard Nixon.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, for those who have had their head in the sand for three
decades.
AMY GOODMAN: Or were just recently born.
MICHAEL MOORE: Or justyeah, OK, thats true, young people, yes. These were
actual presidents that were elected. And then this guy named W, W, George W.
Bush, who, during one of the debates, when he was asked who the president of
Pakistan was, he couldnthe went, "Uh, GeneralGeneralGeneral General."
Thatsremember this? It was likewe elected that guywell, once, we elected
him. The other time he wasnt elected. But no, thisanything can happen in
this country. And it can happen in ways you dontI mean, Minnesota, I
consider thatyouve traveledright?the country. Its one of the smarter
states, you know? I mean, you know, theres like what I call the smart
states. You know, Oregon.
AMY GOODMAN: I just came back from North Dakota.
MICHAEL MOORE: Northoh, thats a wonderful state. Actually, anything that
sort of borders or is near Canada, you know, theres somethingI dont know,
theres something that comes down. The people have aIm just saying that in
Minnesota, if you remember, they elected a professional wrestler as their
governor. Can Donald J. Trump be elected in this country as president of the
United States? Absolutely. And I dont believe the polls. On Election Dayon
primary day back in March in my state, in Michigan, that morning, I turned
on the TV. All the national polls had Hillary beating Bernie by anywhere
from eight to 22 points. Twelve hours later, Bernie defeated her. Ever since
then, Ive said, "Man, these polls, I dont trust it." Do not trust it. And
I think theyre probably undercounting the Trump support.
AMY GOODMAN: Because arent they counting people who voted in the last
election, the most likely voters?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: And a lot of people who are outside the system dont vote when
theyre disenchanted.
MICHAEL MOORE: Thats right. And the disenchanted, the angerthe angry voter
is coming out next Tuesday. And where I liveyou know, usually the election
is the first week of November. This is the second Tuesday of November. Its
a rare second Tuesday election. And the second week of November in Michigan,
its called winter. The chance of there being two feet of snow in Ohio or
Pennsylvania or Michigan or Wisconsin is great. And what that means is a low
voter turnout. Its already going to be low, because people are fed up with
the choices. Right? So were already going to have a low turnout. Who wins
in a low voter turnout, Amy? You know, the person who has the most rabid
supporters. I would not call the supporters of Hillary Clinton rabid. You
know, peopleif you ask people how theyre voting, like out thereI was out
thereI was talking to one of the people in your office. "So, who are you
thinking of voting for?" "Meh, Im going to vote for Hillary." I said, "Wow!
Theres a ringing endorsement. 'Well, I'm going to vote for Hillary." You
know, the support for her seems to go from "Yeah, Im voting for Hillary,"
all the way to "Yeah, screw it. Im voting for Hillary." You know, its
like, phlllgggh, were going to win with that?
AMY GOODMAN: Well, youyou take a very different tack. And lets go to yet
another clip
MICHAEL MOORE: OK.
AMY GOODMAN: from Michael Moore in TrumpLand, where you address concerns
about Hillary Clintons, well, lack of trustworthiness.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes.
MICHAEL MOORE: What are the other knocks on Hillary? Not trustworthy. Right?
We hear that a lot: Shes not trustworthy. How did she prove her
distrustworthiness to you? Did she promise to water the plants for you while
you were gone and then didnt? No, Im not talking about differences ofI
mean, well, she flip-flops of whatever. Well, everybody changes. Everybody
evolves. I hope they do. Right? We want our Trump voter friends in here
tonightwere asking them to maybe change. If you just stay in cement, its
likeOK, so shes learned. She was againstshe fought gay marriage, and then
she was for it. Well, Id rather that than staying against gay marriage. I
dont think thats a bad thing. She said her Iraq War vote was wrong. Shes
never done anything more wrong than that. OK, its not exactly "Im sorry,"
but thats prettyOK, shes a politician. I accept that. What else? What
else? What are the other knocks on Hillary?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Benghazi.
MICHAEL MOORE: Benghazi. OK, Benghazi, yes. She got up in the middle of the
night and personally planned, with ISIS, which she and Obama
createdaccording to Trump, they invented ISISand they planned this attack
to kill our people there at the consulate in Benghazi.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Cleared six times!
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, shes been cleared of the charges six times. Thats not
enough! You have to beif youre Hillary Clinton, you have to be cleared
eight times. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Clinton Foundation!
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, the Clinton Foundation. Well, thank God theres a Clinton
Foundation. Look at all the good theyve done. You know? I mean, and if what
they say is true, and so they get to have a meeting with Hillary, and whats
their meetingshes still Hillary Clinton. Its not like they get to go in
there and say, "I need you to bombI need you to bomb Yemen." "OK, how much
did you give the Clinton Foundation?" "I gave the Clinton Foundation $50
million." "Call in the airstrikes." Thats not whats going on.
AMY GOODMAN: Michael Moore in TrumpLand. So, do you think you reached the
people who you want to make not just dont want Trump, but want to be
enthusiastic about Hillary?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, this is not a film that is spending an hour and a half
bashing Trump. Theres nothing more I need to say about Trump. You already
know everything about him. I did want to say why Im going to vote for her.
And Ive never voted for her. I have huge political disagreements with her,
obviousthe obvious ones: the war, too cozy with Wall Street, etc., etc.
But, you know, there are also these things about her that I think are pretty
decent and good, and they never get talked about. And, you know, no person
is just one way. And, you know, one of my hopesand I address Hillary
directly in the camera during the piece here, hoping shell see this,
because I want to tell her that were hoping that she will be something
better than what weve seen in the past. And I am hoping that that is what
will happen. Now, I may be a cockeyed optimist here. I am fully aware shes
a politician, and shes a Clinton, and all of that. But I alsotheres too
much at stake here at this point. And, look, we live in a countryCanada has
five political parties for 34 million people. We have two, two parties that
are treated like parties. We need to have three and four and five political
parties to represent the broad spectrum of political thought amongst 320
million people. We have to fix the system. And we have to commit to doing
that. We say this every four years, then we forget about it, and then we
get, you know, two more choices and what I used to call the evil of two
lessers. And were all tired of this, and I think we need towe need to fix
this. We cant fix it by Tuesday. So, I think Im willing to accept that we
had a decent enough victory with where we brought the country with Bernie
Sanders and what he had to say and how people took to it. Were going to
build on that. The Bernie revolution will continue. And I think thatyou
know, were not being asked to vote for Margaret Thatcher here. All right? I
mean, were not being asked to vote for Sandra Day OConnor or Clarence
Thomas or whoever the first or the token is thats presented to us as always
just some awful choice. You know, thisshes notshes not that. And, in
fact, I think she stood for a lot of good. And in the movie, I tell the
story about, with healthcare, what she tried to do back in the 90s.
AMY GOODMAN: Academy Award-winning filmmaker Michael Moore, his new film,
Michael Moore in TrumpLand. Well come back to our conversation in a minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: "Howlin Shame" by Adia Victoria, here on Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. Im Amy Goodman, as we continue
our conversation with Michael Moore, the Academy Award-winning filmmaker.
His newest film, Michael Moore in TrumpLand. He talked about Hillary
Clintons stance on healthcare, something he knew well from making his
documentary Sicko, which dealt with the failures of the U.S. healthcare
system
. MICHAEL MOORE: I made Sicko, and I studied and remembered how she was
vilified and attacked because she wanted to put forth the idea that every
American should be able to go to the doctor and not have to worry about
going bankrupt. And she pushed for that back in 93, and she had her head
cut off, and she was told to go back in the White House, be the first lady
and shut up. And it was brutal. It wasdo you remember this? And it was
AMY GOODMAN: Many people, though, also said sheas with under Obamacare,
that she wouldnt include people who were true advocates for real healthcare
reform, single payer, Medicare for all. MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, right, because
she didnt understand the politics of how, when you want to make something
like that happen, you have toit has to work from the bottom up, not the top
down. And had she aligned herself with grassroots activists and all
thatyeah, her strategy wasnt good. That was just her own naiveté with it.
Then, when she became a senator, she took money from the pharmaceutical
companies and the healthcare companies and all that, and she wasnt that
same person anymore. So, now, I appeal to her, if shes elected, to do the
right thing.
AMY GOODMAN: You met her.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, well, I was invited to the White House for a dinner when
Bill was the president. And I tell the story in the film about my evening
there at the White House. And Ive met her a couple of times since, too,
just inyou know, being in New York here, youre at events or whatever. And
I have to say, Ill tellI dont know. Have you ever met her? Have you ever
been in the room with her, orshes actually very personable and very nice
and funny. Shes got a great sense of humor, that you otherwise wouldnt
normally see.
AMY GOODMAN: Have they asked you to go out on the campaign trail?
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, God, they want nothing to do with me.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, wait, talk about what happened at the White House.
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, the White House?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes. You met her and Bill together.
MICHAEL MOORE: I met them together and
AMY GOODMAN: This was when? MICHAEL MOORE: This was in 1998. It was actually
the night before his impeachment. All right? So he looked like crap. So,
they announce you coming in the room, and, like, the person before me is a
marine, is a marine in dress uniform. "Mr. President and Madam First Lady,
the chairman of General Electric Jack Welch." So, hes in front of me,
right? So he walks in there. And were told, "You have five seconds, shake
their hand, say something nice, and get the hell out of there." So he does
his grand grip with them. "Mr. President and Madam First Lady," the marine
is going, "Uh, Michael Moore?" And so I walk in there, and I shake his. And
he goeshe grabs my hand, and he goes, "Michael Moore? Oh, Im youre number
one fan. I just loveI love TV Nation. Its justI love that show. I
remember that one episode you did where you went to Idaho, and you"and hes
like literally recounting an obscure episode. And Im thinking, "These
Clintons are really good." Like, hes got a story for everybody in line
here. "And then Roger & Me, and Im just your number one fan." And at that
moment, she grabs my hand out of his hand, and she says to him, "No, youre
not. I am his number one fan." And she takes my hand and grips it, and she
goes, "I just want to thank you, that what you wrote in that chapter in your
book"my first book. This is inlike at that time, in the 90s.
AMY GOODMAN: Was this Downsize This?
MICHAEL MOORE: Downsize This.
AMY GOODMAN: Wasnt this your love letter to Hillary Clinton?
MICHAEL MOORE: It was a chapter called "My Forbidden Love for Hillary." And
I just felt so bad on how she was being treated. And she was being mocked
for what she wore and her hair, you know? Because shes a woman, so she gets
this wholeall this shade thrown at her. And we didnt call it "shade" back
then, by the way. And anyways, so shes like, "I justI really thank you
forand that first line in that chapter?" And my face was like turning red,
because, I meanyou know me a little bit. If people knew me, I am kind of a
shy person. And my face was turning red. And the line wasand you may have
to bleep this, but it was "Hillary Clinton. Shes one hot [bleep]-kickin
feminist babe." And she said, "I really like that, what you wrote and what
you said about me on The Today Show." And at this point, theyre trying to
likeher aide is likethe aide thinks Im holding up the line, but she wont
let me go. And, anyways, then I say little joke afterwards. But basically,
yes, that was my first encounter with Hillary Clinton. And its, you know,
not a similar thing with Al Gore, but I met him, finally, like three years
after he wonI mean lost, I mean won, I mean lost. I was in Nashville giving
a speech, and he heard I was there, and he invited me over for breakfast the
next morning. And I went over to his house. Tipper and Al are cooking me
eggs and bacon. And I sit there for two hours talking to them. The guy was
so funny, so personablethe opposite of what we saw. And I couldnt help
myself. At the end of the two hours, I said to him, "Al, how come we didnt
see this guy? Why did we see the stiff? Why didnt we seewhy didnt you be
yourself?" And he goes, "I know. I know."
AMY GOODMAN: Well, for all of this, Michael
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go back to what you said about Bernie Sanders, when
you first endorsed him.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: You said, "Hillary says Bernies plans just arent 'realistic'
or 'pragmatic.' This week she said 'single payer health care will NEVER,
EVER happen.' Never? Ever? Wow. Why not just give up? Hillary also says its
not practical to offer free college for everyone. You cant get more
practical than the Germansand theyre able to do it. As do many other
countries. Clinton does find ways to pay for war and tax breaks for the
rich. Hillary Clinton was FOR the war in Iraq, AGAINST gay marriage, FOR the
Patriot Act, FOR NAFTA, and wants to put Ed Snowden in prison. THATS a lot
to wrap ones head around, especially when you have Bernie Sanders as an
alternative. He will be the opposite of all that. There are many good things
about Hillary. But its clear shes to the right of Obama and will move us
backwards, not forward. This would be sad. Very sad."
MICHAEL MOORE: Mm-hmm, yeah. And then she had to run against Bernie for all
those months, and she had to start changing her tune. And she had to start
agreeing with him, because she wasnt going to win. You know, even with all
their cheating at the DNC, even with all their superdelegates, there was a
chance he was going to pull this off. So she had to eithereither get with
the programin other words, where the majority of Americans are at. The
majority of Americans want universal, single-payer healthcare. The majority
of Americans, you know, want a paid maternity leave. They want free college
for their kids. Go down the whole list. The American people agree with
Bernie Sanders, not Hillary Clinton. So, in order for her to pull that off,
she either had to start agreeing with the majority of Americans, and his
presence pushed her and pushed her and pushed her toward better positions to
take. Now, we could sit here and say, "Well, that, Mike, thats all they
arepositions." Well, youre right. We wont know what shes going to do
until shes in there. So, the onus really is on us. On November 9th, if
shes elected, on November 9th, the next day, do wewhether its the Bernie
revolution, whether its the Green revolution, you know, whoever it is, do
we get active right away and make sure that she does the things she says
shes going to do? Or do we do like we did after Obama got elected? Because
after there was this big revolution to elect a man, whose middle name was
Husseinand we got him elected, right? And it was young people that got him
elected, largest turnout in history of 18- to 35-year-olds in that election.
And he will say that, too, that it was the youth vote that made this happen.
You know, are we going to sit back? Because we sat back. And what happened a
month after Obama was elected? He appoints Timothy Geithner as the Treasury
secretary and Larry Summers as the economic head. You know, its like, oh.
Do you remember that feeling? And its like, "Oh, jeez." And nobody got
active. Nobody stayed active. And there was a silence during those two years
when we had the House and the Senate. And that was a mistake that we, the
people, the grassroots, didnt stay active and stay on his case. We
didntinstead, he goes up to Capitol Hill, and hes all kumbaya with these
guys, the Republicans, he wants to get along. Not unusual, if you had read
his book. That is who he is. He wasnt phony. That was who he is. But we
needed somebody with some boots on that was going to go up there and kick
some butt and get some things done, and he didnt do that. And wewewere
silent. And we didntwe got active, right? After we lost the House and the
Senate then two years later, what happened the next year? Occupy Wall
Street. What happened a couple years after that? Black Lives Matter. So,
movements then began, during the Obama years, that now are thriving today.
Whether we call ourselves Occupy Wall Street or not, we changed the whole
dynamic here, and the American public understands the 1 percent versus the
99.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Michael, as people are making their decision who to vote
for, and it may not just be between Trump and Hillary Clintonof course,
theres a Green Party, theres a Libertarian Partybut its also about
whether even to go out to vote.
MICHAEL MOORE: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to get your response to Glenn Greenwald, now of The
Intercept, discussing Hillary Clintons foreign policy.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, OK.
GLENN GREENWALD: One of the most notable parts of Clintons approach to
foreign policy that has gotten relatively little attention is that one of
the few areas where she has been openly critical of President Obama has been
by complaining that hes been insufficiently militaristic or belligerent or
aggressive in a number of areas, in particular, in Syria, where she
criticized him in her book and then also in various interviews for not doing
enough in Syria to stop the Syrian dictator, Assad, from brutalizing the
Syrian people. She has advocatedSecretary Clinton hasa no-fly zone, which
could lead to military confrontation with Russia, whos flying over Syria.
And then Michèle Flournoy, in an interview, made clear that she not only
believes in a no-fly zone, but also more active boots on the ground in
Syria, American boots on the ground. And given that the Russians are already
there, that there is ISIS there, that there are al-Qaeda elements, that
theres still a civil war ongoing, it would be extremely dangerous to
involve the U.S. further in military involvement in Syria. And yet, you have
President Obama, who himself has been very militaristiche has bombed seven
predominantly Muslim countries in the last seven yearsand yet Secretary
Clintons critique of his foreign policy is, in every case, that hes not
aggressive enough, hes not militaristic enough. And in Syria, in
particular, they seem to really be itching to involve the U.S. a lot more
directly and a lot more aggressively in that conflict.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Glenn Greenwald. Michael Moore?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, thank God for Glenn Greenwald. Yes, Ive said the same
thing. I mean, she is a hawk. She is to the right of Obama. Thatsthats
the truth. So, for us to prevent whatever war she might be thinking of
getting us into, were going to have to be active. We have be that way. We
should be that way all the time, no matter who is in the White House. But
were being given this awful choice on Tuesday of which war do you wantthe
war Hillarys going to start or the war Donald J. Trumps going to start?
You know, because one of them is going to be the president. Soand I resent
AMY GOODMAN: Donald J. Trump just said that its Hillary Clinton whos going
to bomb Syria, and that Putin doesnt like her, and that proves that Hillary
Clinton is a mess.
MICHAEL MOORE: Donald Trump, trust me, we cant even imagine the kind of
conflicts hes going to get us into. This is a 12-year-old narcissist that
is going to be sitting behind the desk in the Oval Office, with a very thin
skin and a lot of hate in him. You know, I guess Imyes, were being asked
to pick a certain poison here, or, you know, that old exercise of, you know,
youre in a lifeboat, and theres only room for one more, and it has to be
either Hitler or Mussolini.
AMY GOODMAN: But you say its not that choice. In your film, its not just
pick your own poison.
MICHAEL MOORE: No, thats right. Thats right. Im notI am not a proponent
of scaring people into voting for Hillary as thats the only reason. Most of
her ads now are about scaring people, instead of just saying what shes
positively going to do. And shes going to do a number of positive things.
And we need to be there. The revolution, the Bernie revolution, the Green
revolution, needs to be there to support her when she does the right things
and to challenge her when she doesnt. And I say in the film that, you know,
if she doesnt do this, we cant wait like we did with Obama. We have to be
active, and were going to run somebody against her in the next election.
And were going to run people in the midterms that are not her, that are
going to oppose her, Democrats that will oppose her in Congress. Were going
to have to do that. Our work is not over after Tuesday.
AMY GOODMAN: And the fact that the Republicans are saying the minute if she
is elected, they will be investigating her, and theyre talking about
possible impeachment?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, well, theyre always going to behave like Republicans.
You know, the thing is, the difference between her and Obama, shes not
going to go up there and hold hands with them. Shes not going to go sing
"Kumbaya." Shes not going to try to find the great compromise, you know?
Shes likeshe is a woman of my generation. I mean, Im in the second half
of the baby boom, shes in the first half. And, you know, I dont know where
you fall. Youre way too young to be in any baby boom. But Im just saying,
if you know or you have friends that grew up in this era, she knows what
shes been through as a woman in this society. She has not forgotten this.
And I dontI cant see her signing a single piece of legislation thats
going to say, "We, the government, have control over your reproductive
organs," you know, or something thats going to hurt children or something.
So I think these areyou know, we need Glenn, we need The Intercept, we need
you. I should keep making movies. You know, all of us are going to have to
do our thing.
AMY GOODMAN: Except you say that you may well be what? Running in 2020?
MICHAEL MOORE: If II said I will offer myself up. If she goes back on what
she says shes going to do, if she doesnt adopt the two-thirds of Bernies
positions that she said shes going to do, then either I or Kanye will run
in 2020.
Amy Goodman is the host of Democracy Now! [3], a daily international
TV/radio news hour airing on more than 1,200 stations in North America. She
is the co-author of The Silenced Majority [4], a New York Times best-seller.
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[5] mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo on Michael Moore: How I
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Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org)
Home > Michael Moore: How I Moved from Supporting Bernie Sanders to Hillary
Clinton for President
Michael Moore: How I Moved from Supporting Bernie Sanders to Hillary Clinton
for President
By Amy Goodman [1] / Democracy Now! [2]
November 7, 2016
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With the U.S. election only days away, Michael Moore has released a surprise
new film about Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton titled "Michael Moore in
TrumpLand." Democracy Now! sat down with the Academy Award-winning filmmaker
and talked about how he moved from supporting Bernie Sanders during the
primary to now supporting Hillary Clinton. "My hope was that on Tuesday we
would have the great decision
between the socialist and the billionaire,"
Moore says. On Clinton, he notes: "She is a hawk. She is to the right of
Obama. Thats the truth.
Were going to have to be active."
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We continue our conversation with Michael Moore, the Academy
Award-winning filmmaker. His latest film, an October surprise, its called
Michael Moore in TrumpLand. I asked him if hes ever met Republican
presidential hopeful Donald Trump.
MICHAEL MOORE: Ive only met him once, back in 1998. And theres aI think
there was a clip of that in the trailer there, where I was on a talk show
with him. And
AMY GOODMAN: Whose talk show?
MICHAEL MOORE: Roseanne Barr, after her series was over, had afor two
years, had an afternoon talk show. And she came to New York for a week at
Tavern on the Green, and she invited me to come on. And I get there, and
Donald Trump is the other guest. And the producer comes over to me and says,
"Um, Im reallyIm really sorry, but, um, Mr. Trump is very nervous about
you being on the show, and, um, he is afraid youre going to attack him.
And, um, uh"I said, "Let me talk to him. You know, hes sitting over in the
corner over there. Ill go talk to him." So I go over and introduce myself.
"Mr. Trump, Im Michael Moore. You know, I understand youre a little
worried. Theres nothing to worry about." You know, Iand this is '98, so I
don't know that much about Trump, right? You know, I justI know hes made
somebuilt some buildings. I said, "There no reason to bewere here to have
some fun with Roseanne. You dont have to worry." And Im shaking his hand,
and its all clammy. I mean, the guy is like so nervous. And Im likeyou
know, so I think my job is Ive got to calm him down. "Were going to be
fine. Well go out on the couch. Well have some fun." Im trying to help
the producer out, right? So he wontbecause theyre afraid hes going to
walk. And he goes, "No, no. Its justits just that, you know, uh, you
know, I just dont want to go out there and like, you know, because, you
know, I just"I said, "Dont, dont, dont, dont. Its not that kind of
show. Dont worry. Dont worry. Its OK." And so, we go out on the show,
and, again, I dontI dont go after him on anything. I just leave him
alone, you know. And when it was overand I didnt think this untiluntil
actually this past year, where I thought, "That guy is good, man. I got
played." He got me to not bring up any of his crap there on that show,
because he gotI felt sorry for him. And I thought, "This guy is good." This
guy didnt get to where he got by being stupid. He is not stupid. And I
thoughthe got me to not say anything political, do anything political, and
just have, you know, a little laugh fest on the couch there withon The
Roseanne Show.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, when you made this, it was right around the time the women
were coming forward saying he assaulted them, right?
MICHAEL MOORE: When themy movie, the new one right now?
AMY GOODMAN: It was just breaking. Yes.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, yes, yeah. Oh, yes. Actually, that performance that you
see in the film is literally four hours after the Billy Bush tape is
revealed. So I have just watched this tape. I havent heard any of the
pundits or anything. Ive just watched the tape, and now Im going to go out
on the stage. So, when you see the film, theres a portion of the film where
I talk about women of Hillarys age and women of that generation, who grew
up inessentially, the first feminists of the modern feminist era in the
'60s and early 70s, and what they went through to be feminists and the crap
that they had to take as a result of that. And so, now, when I watch the
film, I know what's playing in my head is I just had watched this god-awful
conversation that Trump was having with Billy Bush. And it was so vile and
soyou know, I mean, letsOK, lets be honest. Theres nothing he said on
that tape that was surprising, that, you know, "Oh, I cant believe Donald
Trump said these things." You know, no. And I wasnt surprised by Billy
Bush, Ws first cousinright?that he was actually trying to pimppimp Trump
out there when they got out. Oh, it was just awful. You know, it was like
somebody last year went to Dr. Frankenstein and said, "Listen, we want to
create a candidate that embodies all the worst traits of men, rich people
and white people, and put them all into one candidate." And then here we
have Donald J. Trump. But anyway, so Im thinkingif you go back and watch
that tape, OK, we know the vile comments, we know the attitude, we know now
hes a confessed sexual predator. But its when he tries to get off the bus.
He goes down. He doesnt know how to get off the bus. He knockslook at the
tape. He knocks on the door of the bus. And I went, "Oh, my god! This is the
first time in his life hes ever been on a bus. This man has never ridden
the bus." Right there, that should be a disqualifier for being president of
the United States. No president shouldwe should never elect anybody whos
never ridden on a friggin bus. So, it was just the whole thing. And then I
went out on the stage and performed and filmed this piece.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, lets go in a different direction to the part of Michael
Moore in TrumpLand where you talk about Beyoncés halftime performance at
the Super Bowl.
MICHAEL MOORE: I predict anthropologists, they will know the moment it
happened, when it was clear the men were on the way out and the women were
on their way in. And it was the Super Bowl this past year. You know, its
halftime show. Coldplay is playing one of their nice songs. "Ooh, I love you
a lot, ooh, ooh." And then Bruno Mars came on, and then that sort of
confused a lot of guys watching the halftime show. "Ooh, what is this?" And
then, all of a sudden, right in the middle of Brunos song, out comes
Beyoncé and 500 women in these uniforms, with their fists clenched and
raised, and their [bleep]-kicking boots on, taking the field. "Oooh!" Its
like, "Oh, mywait! Thats our game! Whats she doing here?" Thats where
were ending up. And guys know it. And thats why theyre at the Trump
rallies. Thats why you hear that sound. "Woooaaaaaaaaah! Woooooah! Donald,
save us! The women are coming!"
AMY GOODMAN: Michael, what was the response in the audience?
MICHAEL MOORE: It was well received, even by the guys. Evenbecause the guys
know it. The guyssee, the guyslisten, this isnt justthis isnt a new
thing, where women are in charge or that women areyou know, I mean, we
gradually now20 percent of our Congress is female, so the majority gender
now has 20 percent of the power, even though they are 51 percent of the
population. So, but men have had to get used to this, I think, after a
while. But some of the guys are having a very hard time with it. And even
Obama referenced them a couple days ago, where, you know, he said, "Guys,
you know, I know this is something youre not used toa woman in the White
House. Two hundred and forty years, weve done it one way." So, sometimes,
you know, people are a little nervous about change, and theyre used toyou
know, they want it a certain way. But you know what? These guys who have a
problem with Hillary, with women in general, theyre going to have to get
over it. Just like when you and I were growing upI remember my parents
taking me on a trip to the South, and I saw signs that said "whites only"
and "colored only" and all that. And then there was a law, and they had to
take the signs down, and things changed. Racism didnt go away, but the
proponents of it and the people that held power with these attitudes either
had to change or move out of the way, because a new generation was coming
up. Thats whats so great about this generation now, young people, 18 to
35, the Bernie revolution, is that they are the ones in charge now. Theyre
going to be in charge. And Im very optimistic about this, becausebecause
every year 3 million 17-year-olds turn 18, which means theyre voters. And
in these next four years before the next presidential election, theres
going to be 12 million more young voters. And theyre not haters. You know,
theythe majority of these young people arethats why theyre driving this
whole thing. Its why we have a different society now that is not so hateful
to gay people and to people of color and that. Doesnt mean thats gone
away, but its better because we have young people now, you know, steering
the car a little bit here.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think if the media had nothad given as much time to
Bernie Sanders as they did to Donald Trump, had given as much time to Bernie
Sanders as they did to the openthe empty podium when they were waiting for
Donald Trump for all the months of the primary, had played a few of Bernies
speechesI mean, he was getting more people to his speeches without the help
of the media megaphone than even Donald Trump was, and certainly Hillary
Clinton was. And you see how far Bernie went. Do you think it is possible
that it would have been very different, since they both represented
something outside the system?
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I mean, my hope was
that, on Tuesday, we would have the great decision, the choice, between the
socialist and the billionaire. I mean, that
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think he is a billionaire?
MICHAEL MOORE: Well, he likes to call himself that. And, you know, sometimes
you have to humor people that think they have things they dont have. You
know, so, yes, Ill justIll let him, you know, out of respect for him as a
human being. No, I think, listenoh, my god. I mean, of course, I worked
very hard for Bernie. I went up to Burlington and campaigned for him in
1990, when he first won for Congress. You know, I was the only like
quasi-known person at that time who would go up there and campaign for him.
And so Ive known him a long time. And, man, we won 22 states in the
primaries and caucuses this year. I tell my, you know, fellow Bernie voters,
"Hey, I know were all kind of bummed about this and, you know, the DNC
cheaters"cheaters, you know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, you know, all
theyou know, there will be more that will come out. Were going to learn a
lot more on what they did to him. But well set that aside for a moment, and
just likeweve got to feel some joy and celebrate what we accomplished: 22
states, in our lifetime, voted for a socialist. That was just an amazing
thing to have happen. And then the candidate who gets nominated, Hillary
Clinton, she adopts over two-thirds of his platform
AMY GOODMAN: Like?
MICHAEL MOORE: as part of herwell, she puts it in her own words, in terms
of raising the minimum wage. She doesnt say, you know, "free college," she
says "debt-free college." You know, go down the list of things, though, in
terms of paid maternity leave, women being paid the same as menall these
issues that we care about. We didnt get everything that we wanted, but we
got a lotlisten, I mean, 1998, I worked for Jesse Jackson when he ran for
president. And he won the Michigan primary. He won a lot of primaries.
People forget this. But Dukakis was the nominee. How muchhow much of
Jesses platform did Dukakis put in as part of his? Nah, I dont remember
anything. So, we were able to move the ball down the field. Hillary didnt
goshe didnt become more conservative as a Democrat, she became more
liberal. She
AMY GOODMAN: Well, she was running in the primaries.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes. And, welland now shes not going to win without us on
Tuesday. Thats the bottom line. And shes not going to win without young
people, because heres one thing that we know now. We know how African
Americans are going to vote. We know how Hispanics are going to vote.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you concerned polls say that
MICHAEL MOORE: We know how women are going to vote.
AMY GOODMAN: not as many African Americans are going out in early voting as
it was expected?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes. Thats whythats why today Hillary Clinton is going to
Detroit, when she shouldnt have to go there, but she has to go there,
because in Detroitone of the polls I read from Detroit is that she had lost
11 points of African-American voters in Detroit. Not that theyre going to
Trump, but just theyre probably not going to vote. Yes, theres a huge fire
siren going off in the Clinton campaign, because, once again, theyve
ignored certain constituencies that they shouldnt have ignored, and they
took it for granted. And they treated Bernie very poorly during the
primaries about somehow she was for African Americans and he wasnt, or, you
know, whenI mean, his whole history, from the time he was in college
getting arrested at civil rights demonstrations, you know, and when she, in
her freshman year, shes the head of the college Republicans. So, I felt bad
for him that he just had to suffer through all those things he did as a
young person to stand up, you know, when it wasnt popular, in 1963, to
stand up for certain things.
AMY GOODMAN: Lets go to another clip of Michael Moore in TrumpLand. This
ones about Hillary Clinton.
MICHAEL MOORE: I got a surprise for you tonight. Someone from the Trump
campaign has leaked us a copy of their new ad.
NARRATOR: The diseases, shes had them allpneumonia, hypo-thyroidism,
allergies, yeast infection, urinary tract discomfort, pregnancy, child
birth, time of month disorder, bleeding from wherever disease and menopause.
Do you want a commander-in-chief whose lady parts are out of control? Or do
you want a fit, buff leader, who will be the healthiest president ever.
Ever! Even healthier than Teddy Roosevelt, and he was shot in the chest.
Yes, theres only one candidate this year healthy enough to spawn an entire
new breed of humans. Vote Trump. He never gets sick.
DONALD TRUMP: I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot
somebody, and I wouldnt lose any voters, OK?
NARRATOR: Now, thats sick!
DONALD TRUMP: Im Donald Trump, and I so approve this message.
MICHAEL MOORE: Effective. I think hes going to do really well.
AMY GOODMAN: Michael Moore?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, you know, I was elected class comic when I was a senior
in high school. Ive used it well, I hope.
AMY GOODMAN: But hes doing much better than you might have thought, right?
Especially now, even since you gave these speeches in Ohio.
MICHAEL MOORE: Well, yes. I mean, Ive said, since the summer, people should
take him seriously. I said a year and a half ago, when he announced, this is
going to be the Republican nominee for president. Its probably because I
watch a lot of TV, so Im one of the few people on the left that actually
watched Celebrity Apprentice. You know, I watch American Idol. But I know
how Americans are, when they comewhen it comes to voting. Everybody thinks
Jennifer Hudson won American Idol. She didnt. Fantasia won. You know,
peoplewho remembers Fantasia now, right? But this is what can happen when
Americans vote. You know, I watched The Bachelorette last year. Kaitlyn,
everybody thought she was going to go for Nick; instead, she went for Shawn.
Im just saying, stuff can happen in this country.
AMY GOODMAN: And in elections, the surprises that youve lived in your
lifetime?
MICHAEL MOORE: I was stunned that a B actor whose co-star was a chimpanzee
could get elected presidenttwice. He was called "Tricky Dick" before he was
electedtwice. Then W, you know, who wasnt elected.
AMY GOODMAN: But wait. First youre talking about Ronald Reagan.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Then youre talking about Richard Nixon.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, for those who have had their head in the sand for three
decades.
AMY GOODMAN: Or were just recently born.
MICHAEL MOORE: Or justyeah, OK, thats true, young people, yes. These were
actual presidents that were elected. And then this guy named W, W, George W.
Bush, who, during one of the debates, when he was asked who the president of
Pakistan was, he couldnthe went, "Uh, GeneralGeneralGeneral General."
Thatsremember this? It was likewe elected that guywell, once, we elected
him. The other time he wasnt elected. But no, thisanything can happen in
this country. And it can happen in ways you dontI mean, Minnesota, I
consider thatyouve traveledright?the country. Its one of the smarter
states, you know? I mean, you know, theres like what I call the smart
states. You know, Oregon.
AMY GOODMAN: I just came back from North Dakota.
MICHAEL MOORE: Northoh, thats a wonderful state. Actually, anything that
sort of borders or is near Canada, you know, theres somethingI dont know,
theres something that comes down. The people have aIm just saying that in
Minnesota, if you remember, they elected a professional wrestler as their
governor. Can Donald J. Trump be elected in this country as president of the
United States? Absolutely. And I dont believe the polls. On Election Dayon
primary day back in March in my state, in Michigan, that morning, I turned
on the TV. All the national polls had Hillary beating Bernie by anywhere
from eight to 22 points. Twelve hours later, Bernie defeated her. Ever since
then, Ive said, "Man, these polls, I dont trust it." Do not trust it. And
I think theyre probably undercounting the Trump support.
AMY GOODMAN: Because arent they counting people who voted in the last
election, the most likely voters?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: And a lot of people who are outside the system dont vote when
theyre disenchanted.
MICHAEL MOORE: Thats right. And the disenchanted, the angerthe angry voter
is coming out next Tuesday. And where I liveyou know, usually the election
is the first week of November. This is the second Tuesday of November. Its
a rare second Tuesday election. And the second week of November in Michigan,
its called winter. The chance of there being two feet of snow in Ohio or
Pennsylvania or Michigan or Wisconsin is great. And what that means is a low
voter turnout. Its already going to be low, because people are fed up with
the choices. Right? So were already going to have a low turnout. Who wins
in a low voter turnout, Amy? You know, the person who has the most rabid
supporters. I would not call the supporters of Hillary Clinton rabid. You
know, peopleif you ask people how theyre voting, like out thereI was out
thereI was talking to one of the people in your office. "So, who are you
thinking of voting for?" "Meh, Im going to vote for Hillary." I said, "Wow!
Theres a ringing endorsement. 'Well, I'm going to vote for Hillary." You
know, the support for her seems to go from "Yeah, Im voting for Hillary,"
all the way to "Yeah, screw it. Im voting for Hillary." You know, its
like, phlllgggh, were going to win with that?
AMY GOODMAN: Well, youyou take a very different tack. And lets go to yet
another clip
MICHAEL MOORE: OK.
AMY GOODMAN: from Michael Moore in TrumpLand, where you address concerns
about Hillary Clintons, well, lack of trustworthiness.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes.
MICHAEL MOORE: What are the other knocks on Hillary? Not trustworthy. Right?
We hear that a lot: Shes not trustworthy. How did she prove her
distrustworthiness to you? Did she promise to water the plants for you while
you were gone and then didnt? No, Im not talking about differences ofI
mean, well, she flip-flops of whatever. Well, everybody changes. Everybody
evolves. I hope they do. Right? We want our Trump voter friends in here
tonightwere asking them to maybe change. If you just stay in cement, its
likeOK, so shes learned. She was againstshe fought gay marriage, and then
she was for it. Well, Id rather that than staying against gay marriage. I
dont think thats a bad thing. She said her Iraq War vote was wrong. Shes
never done anything more wrong than that. OK, its not exactly "Im sorry,"
but thats prettyOK, shes a politician. I accept that. What else? What
else? What are the other knocks on Hillary?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Benghazi.
MICHAEL MOORE: Benghazi. OK, Benghazi, yes. She got up in the middle of the
night and personally planned, with ISIS, which she and Obama
createdaccording to Trump, they invented ISISand they planned this attack
to kill our people there at the consulate in Benghazi.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Cleared six times!
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, shes been cleared of the charges six times. Thats not
enough! You have to beif youre Hillary Clinton, you have to be cleared
eight times. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Clinton Foundation!
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, the Clinton Foundation. Well, thank God theres a Clinton
Foundation. Look at all the good theyve done. You know? I mean, and if what
they say is true, and so they get to have a meeting with Hillary, and whats
their meetingshes still Hillary Clinton. Its not like they get to go in
there and say, "I need you to bombI need you to bomb Yemen." "OK, how much
did you give the Clinton Foundation?" "I gave the Clinton Foundation $50
million." "Call in the airstrikes." Thats not whats going on.
AMY GOODMAN: Michael Moore in TrumpLand. So, do you think you reached the
people who you want to make not just dont want Trump, but want to be
enthusiastic about Hillary?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, this is not a film that is spending an hour and a half
bashing Trump. Theres nothing more I need to say about Trump. You already
know everything about him. I did want to say why Im going to vote for her.
And Ive never voted for her. I have huge political disagreements with her,
obviousthe obvious ones: the war, too cozy with Wall Street, etc., etc.
But, you know, there are also these things about her that I think are pretty
decent and good, and they never get talked about. And, you know, no person
is just one way. And, you know, one of my hopesand I address Hillary
directly in the camera during the piece here, hoping shell see this,
because I want to tell her that were hoping that she will be something
better than what weve seen in the past. And I am hoping that that is what
will happen. Now, I may be a cockeyed optimist here. I am fully aware shes
a politician, and shes a Clinton, and all of that. But I alsotheres too
much at stake here at this point. And, look, we live in a countryCanada has
five political parties for 34 million people. We have two, two parties that
are treated like parties. We need to have three and four and five political
parties to represent the broad spectrum of political thought amongst 320
million people. We have to fix the system. And we have to commit to doing
that. We say this every four years, then we forget about it, and then we
get, you know, two more choices and what I used to call the evil of two
lessers. And were all tired of this, and I think we need towe need to fix
this. We cant fix it by Tuesday. So, I think Im willing to accept that we
had a decent enough victory with where we brought the country with Bernie
Sanders and what he had to say and how people took to it. Were going to
build on that. The Bernie revolution will continue. And I think thatyou
know, were not being asked to vote for Margaret Thatcher here. All right? I
mean, were not being asked to vote for Sandra Day OConnor or Clarence
Thomas or whoever the first or the token is thats presented to us as always
just some awful choice. You know, thisshes notshes not that. And, in
fact, I think she stood for a lot of good. And in the movie, I tell the
story about, with healthcare, what she tried to do back in the 90s.
AMY GOODMAN: Academy Award-winning filmmaker Michael Moore, his new film,
Michael Moore in TrumpLand. Well come back to our conversation in a minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: "Howlin Shame" by Adia Victoria, here on Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. Im Amy Goodman, as we continue
our conversation with Michael Moore, the Academy Award-winning filmmaker.
His newest film, Michael Moore in TrumpLand. He talked about Hillary
Clintons stance on healthcare, something he knew well from making his
documentary Sicko, which dealt with the failures of the U.S. healthcare
system
. MICHAEL MOORE: I made Sicko, and I studied and remembered how she was
vilified and attacked because she wanted to put forth the idea that every
American should be able to go to the doctor and not have to worry about
going bankrupt. And she pushed for that back in 93, and she had her head
cut off, and she was told to go back in the White House, be the first lady
and shut up. And it was brutal. It wasdo you remember this? And it was
AMY GOODMAN: Many people, though, also said sheas with under Obamacare,
that she wouldnt include people who were true advocates for real healthcare
reform, single payer, Medicare for all. MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, right, because
she didnt understand the politics of how, when you want to make something
like that happen, you have toit has to work from the bottom up, not the top
down. And had she aligned herself with grassroots activists and all
thatyeah, her strategy wasnt good. That was just her own naiveté with it.
Then, when she became a senator, she took money from the pharmaceutical
companies and the healthcare companies and all that, and she wasnt that
same person anymore. So, now, I appeal to her, if shes elected, to do the
right thing.
AMY GOODMAN: You met her.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, well, I was invited to the White House for a dinner when
Bill was the president. And I tell the story in the film about my evening
there at the White House. And Ive met her a couple of times since, too,
just inyou know, being in New York here, youre at events or whatever. And
I have to say, Ill tellI dont know. Have you ever met her? Have you ever
been in the room with her, orshes actually very personable and very nice
and funny. Shes got a great sense of humor, that you otherwise wouldnt
normally see.
AMY GOODMAN: Have they asked you to go out on the campaign trail?
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, God, they want nothing to do with me.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, wait, talk about what happened at the White House.
MICHAEL MOORE: Oh, the White House?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes. You met her and Bill together.
MICHAEL MOORE: I met them together and
AMY GOODMAN: This was when? MICHAEL MOORE: This was in 1998. It was actually
the night before his impeachment. All right? So he looked like crap. So,
they announce you coming in the room, and, like, the person before me is a
marine, is a marine in dress uniform. "Mr. President and Madam First Lady,
the chairman of General Electric Jack Welch." So, hes in front of me,
right? So he walks in there. And were told, "You have five seconds, shake
their hand, say something nice, and get the hell out of there." So he does
his grand grip with them. "Mr. President and Madam First Lady," the marine
is going, "Uh, Michael Moore?" And so I walk in there, and I shake his. And
he goeshe grabs my hand, and he goes, "Michael Moore? Oh, Im youre number
one fan. I just loveI love TV Nation. Its justI love that show. I
remember that one episode you did where you went to Idaho, and you"and hes
like literally recounting an obscure episode. And Im thinking, "These
Clintons are really good." Like, hes got a story for everybody in line
here. "And then Roger & Me, and Im just your number one fan." And at that
moment, she grabs my hand out of his hand, and she says to him, "No, youre
not. I am his number one fan." And she takes my hand and grips it, and she
goes, "I just want to thank you, that what you wrote in that chapter in your
book"my first book. This is inlike at that time, in the 90s.
AMY GOODMAN: Was this Downsize This?
MICHAEL MOORE: Downsize This.
AMY GOODMAN: Wasnt this your love letter to Hillary Clinton?
MICHAEL MOORE: It was a chapter called "My Forbidden Love for Hillary." And
I just felt so bad on how she was being treated. And she was being mocked
for what she wore and her hair, you know? Because shes a woman, so she gets
this wholeall this shade thrown at her. And we didnt call it "shade" back
then, by the way. And anyways, so shes like, "I justI really thank you
forand that first line in that chapter?" And my face was like turning red,
because, I meanyou know me a little bit. If people knew me, I am kind of a
shy person. And my face was turning red. And the line wasand you may have
to bleep this, but it was "Hillary Clinton. Shes one hot [bleep]-kickin
feminist babe." And she said, "I really like that, what you wrote and what
you said about me on The Today Show." And at this point, theyre trying to
likeher aide is likethe aide thinks Im holding up the line, but she wont
let me go. And, anyways, then I say little joke afterwards. But basically,
yes, that was my first encounter with Hillary Clinton. And its, you know,
not a similar thing with Al Gore, but I met him, finally, like three years
after he wonI mean lost, I mean won, I mean lost. I was in Nashville giving
a speech, and he heard I was there, and he invited me over for breakfast the
next morning. And I went over to his house. Tipper and Al are cooking me
eggs and bacon. And I sit there for two hours talking to them. The guy was
so funny, so personablethe opposite of what we saw. And I couldnt help
myself. At the end of the two hours, I said to him, "Al, how come we didnt
see this guy? Why did we see the stiff? Why didnt we seewhy didnt you be
yourself?" And he goes, "I know. I know."
AMY GOODMAN: Well, for all of this, Michael
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go back to what you said about Bernie Sanders, when
you first endorsed him.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: You said, "Hillary says Bernies plans just arent 'realistic'
or 'pragmatic.' This week she said 'single payer health care will NEVER,
EVER happen.' Never? Ever? Wow. Why not just give up? Hillary also says its
not practical to offer free college for everyone. You cant get more
practical than the Germansand theyre able to do it. As do many other
countries. Clinton does find ways to pay for war and tax breaks for the
rich. Hillary Clinton was FOR the war in Iraq, AGAINST gay marriage, FOR the
Patriot Act, FOR NAFTA, and wants to put Ed Snowden in prison. THATS a lot
to wrap ones head around, especially when you have Bernie Sanders as an
alternative. He will be the opposite of all that. There are many good things
about Hillary. But its clear shes to the right of Obama and will move us
backwards, not forward. This would be sad. Very sad."
MICHAEL MOORE: Mm-hmm, yeah. And then she had to run against Bernie for all
those months, and she had to start changing her tune. And she had to start
agreeing with him, because she wasnt going to win. You know, even with all
their cheating at the DNC, even with all their superdelegates, there was a
chance he was going to pull this off. So she had to eithereither get with
the programin other words, where the majority of Americans are at. The
majority of Americans want universal, single-payer healthcare. The majority
of Americans, you know, want a paid maternity leave. They want free college
for their kids. Go down the whole list. The American people agree with
Bernie Sanders, not Hillary Clinton. So, in order for her to pull that off,
she either had to start agreeing with the majority of Americans, and his
presence pushed her and pushed her and pushed her toward better positions to
take. Now, we could sit here and say, "Well, that, Mike, thats all they
arepositions." Well, youre right. We wont know what shes going to do
until shes in there. So, the onus really is on us. On November 9th, if
shes elected, on November 9th, the next day, do wewhether its the Bernie
revolution, whether its the Green revolution, you know, whoever it is, do
we get active right away and make sure that she does the things she says
shes going to do? Or do we do like we did after Obama got elected? Because
after there was this big revolution to elect a man, whose middle name was
Husseinand we got him elected, right? And it was young people that got him
elected, largest turnout in history of 18- to 35-year-olds in that election.
And he will say that, too, that it was the youth vote that made this happen.
You know, are we going to sit back? Because we sat back. And what happened a
month after Obama was elected? He appoints Timothy Geithner as the Treasury
secretary and Larry Summers as the economic head. You know, its like, oh.
Do you remember that feeling? And its like, "Oh, jeez." And nobody got
active. Nobody stayed active. And there was a silence during those two years
when we had the House and the Senate. And that was a mistake that we, the
people, the grassroots, didnt stay active and stay on his case. We
didntinstead, he goes up to Capitol Hill, and hes all kumbaya with these
guys, the Republicans, he wants to get along. Not unusual, if you had read
his book. That is who he is. He wasnt phony. That was who he is. But we
needed somebody with some boots on that was going to go up there and kick
some butt and get some things done, and he didnt do that. And wewewere
silent. And we didntwe got active, right? After we lost the House and the
Senate then two years later, what happened the next year? Occupy Wall
Street. What happened a couple years after that? Black Lives Matter. So,
movements then began, during the Obama years, that now are thriving today.
Whether we call ourselves Occupy Wall Street or not, we changed the whole
dynamic here, and the American public understands the 1 percent versus the
99.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Michael, as people are making their decision who to vote
for, and it may not just be between Trump and Hillary Clintonof course,
theres a Green Party, theres a Libertarian Partybut its also about
whether even to go out to vote.
MICHAEL MOORE: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to get your response to Glenn Greenwald, now of The
Intercept, discussing Hillary Clintons foreign policy.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, OK.
GLENN GREENWALD: One of the most notable parts of Clintons approach to
foreign policy that has gotten relatively little attention is that one of
the few areas where she has been openly critical of President Obama has been
by complaining that hes been insufficiently militaristic or belligerent or
aggressive in a number of areas, in particular, in Syria, where she
criticized him in her book and then also in various interviews for not doing
enough in Syria to stop the Syrian dictator, Assad, from brutalizing the
Syrian people. She has advocatedSecretary Clinton hasa no-fly zone, which
could lead to military confrontation with Russia, whos flying over Syria.
And then Michèle Flournoy, in an interview, made clear that she not only
believes in a no-fly zone, but also more active boots on the ground in
Syria, American boots on the ground. And given that the Russians are already
there, that there is ISIS there, that there are al-Qaeda elements, that
theres still a civil war ongoing, it would be extremely dangerous to
involve the U.S. further in military involvement in Syria. And yet, you have
President Obama, who himself has been very militaristiche has bombed seven
predominantly Muslim countries in the last seven yearsand yet Secretary
Clintons critique of his foreign policy is, in every case, that hes not
aggressive enough, hes not militaristic enough. And in Syria, in
particular, they seem to really be itching to involve the U.S. a lot more
directly and a lot more aggressively in that conflict.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Glenn Greenwald. Michael Moore?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, thank God for Glenn Greenwald. Yes, Ive said the same
thing. I mean, she is a hawk. She is to the right of Obama. Thatsthats
the truth. So, for us to prevent whatever war she might be thinking of
getting us into, were going to have to be active. We have be that way. We
should be that way all the time, no matter who is in the White House. But
were being given this awful choice on Tuesday of which war do you wantthe
war Hillarys going to start or the war Donald J. Trumps going to start?
You know, because one of them is going to be the president. Soand I resent
AMY GOODMAN: Donald J. Trump just said that its Hillary Clinton whos going
to bomb Syria, and that Putin doesnt like her, and that proves that Hillary
Clinton is a mess.
MICHAEL MOORE: Donald Trump, trust me, we cant even imagine the kind of
conflicts hes going to get us into. This is a 12-year-old narcissist that
is going to be sitting behind the desk in the Oval Office, with a very thin
skin and a lot of hate in him. You know, I guess Imyes, were being asked
to pick a certain poison here, or, you know, that old exercise of, you know,
youre in a lifeboat, and theres only room for one more, and it has to be
either Hitler or Mussolini.
AMY GOODMAN: But you say its not that choice. In your film, its not just
pick your own poison.
MICHAEL MOORE: No, thats right. Thats right. Im notI am not a proponent
of scaring people into voting for Hillary as thats the only reason. Most of
her ads now are about scaring people, instead of just saying what shes
positively going to do. And shes going to do a number of positive things.
And we need to be there. The revolution, the Bernie revolution, the Green
revolution, needs to be there to support her when she does the right things
and to challenge her when she doesnt. And I say in the film that, you know,
if she doesnt do this, we cant wait like we did with Obama. We have to be
active, and were going to run somebody against her in the next election.
And were going to run people in the midterms that are not her, that are
going to oppose her, Democrats that will oppose her in Congress. Were going
to have to do that. Our work is not over after Tuesday.
AMY GOODMAN: And the fact that the Republicans are saying the minute if she
is elected, they will be investigating her, and theyre talking about
possible impeachment?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, well, theyre always going to behave like Republicans.
You know, the thing is, the difference between her and Obama, shes not
going to go up there and hold hands with them. Shes not going to go sing
"Kumbaya." Shes not going to try to find the great compromise, you know?
Shes likeshe is a woman of my generation. I mean, Im in the second half
of the baby boom, shes in the first half. And, you know, I dont know where
you fall. Youre way too young to be in any baby boom. But Im just saying,
if you know or you have friends that grew up in this era, she knows what
shes been through as a woman in this society. She has not forgotten this.
And I dontI cant see her signing a single piece of legislation thats
going to say, "We, the government, have control over your reproductive
organs," you know, or something thats going to hurt children or something.
So I think these areyou know, we need Glenn, we need The Intercept, we need
you. I should keep making movies. You know, all of us are going to have to
do our thing.
AMY GOODMAN: Except you say that you may well be what? Running in 2020?
MICHAEL MOORE: If II said I will offer myself up. If she goes back on what
she says shes going to do, if she doesnt adopt the two-thirds of Bernies
positions that she said shes going to do, then either I or Kanye will run
in 2020.
Amy Goodman is the host of Democracy Now! [3], a daily international
TV/radio news hour airing on more than 1,200 stations in North America. She
is the co-author of The Silenced Majority [4], a New York Times best-seller.
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