Miriam, Yes, Columbus was financed by a Catholic country but our American
democracy was constructed a couple hundred years later with white anglo saxon
protestant values and remains so today. That is the significant point.
And just to throw some positive light, St Augustine was founded 55 years before
the puritans hit Plymouth Rock and among the horrors of colonial expansive were
some good. The Catholic Church founded in St Augustine the first school for
black children, the first school for the blind, and made trips into the
Carolinas to rescue slaves and transport them to the West Indies as freemen.
Mary
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:19 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
First Mary, can I correct your spelling of my name? It’s M I r I a m, not M a r
I a m.
Second: That’s an interesting point of view. Of course, it’s the Puritans who
came first, and then lots of other Protestants, and our culture does seem to
be very much influenced by all those white Protestants who settled here.
However, Columbus, who conquered all those native American tribes was Catholic
and the history of what happened to the American Indians in California seems to
be related to the Spanish, who were Catholic. I think it’s more like, “Whoever
does the conquering, imposes their particular belief system on their victims”.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 4:24 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Marion, I also have a point to make about your comment that we are not taught
to act as a community but as individuals seeking wealth. I recently read a
history of Luther. It was written as history and not at all as a religious
explanation of the era, by a man claiming no religious preference but wanting
to present a totally historical viewpoint. He believed that without the
Reformation we would not have the United States develop politically as it did.
The Reformation, which stressed individualism, hard work on one's own behalf,
the typical WASP thinking, made capitalism possible. Our Great Experiment in
Democracy and Capitalism would have been impossible if the Catholic Church kept
control. People usually concentrate on all the flaws of practice in the
Catholic Church that Luther saw as needing to be changed, but he didn't realize
the very foundation of society of the time and its political institutions would
also be totally changed. I had never given much thought to the political
effects of the Reformation, just the religious.
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 11:37 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Mary,
I asked if you were Catholic because it seemed to me, from the things that you
wrote, that you are. Since I’ve had relationships with many Catholic people
over the years, and one of my oldest friends is a Catholic Dominican Sister, I
have no preconceptions about what people who say they are Catholic, believe.
One of the problems that I have with internet communication, is the
depersonalization that it fosters. My belief is that part of the sickness of
our society is that it’s huge and bureaucratic, and that people do not relate
to each other as members of a caring community because they have been
encouraged by our institutions, to function as individuals seeking wealth and
security, only for themselves. The connectedness that they think they have from
the internet is, in many cases, an illusion. On this very small list, we have
always known a good deal about each other which is probably why we can forgive
each other’s foibles. It is really different from other lists. We are self
moderating. At this point in time. We don’t have rules about what can be
discussed or what articles can be posted. Most of us are blind, and left of
center politically. But we have two sighted members. One of our members is
still , I think, a practicing Catholic and his politics are right of center.
And we have members who never post so I have no idea who they are or what they
think.
Miriam
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:25 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Oh I love the Nuns on a Bus and am glad you know of them. Yes, I am Catholic
and just as any institution in my life I have gained much but have also seen
atrocities. I do my tiny bit and try to make things better.
I joined this list to learn. Since I retired I have found, with all my
education and degrees and life experience, there is so much I don't know. I
was a History Gold Medalists in school and now tend to read history and
historical fiction and I enjoy almost daily learning something new.
Along with history politics aligns closely. I am scandalized, in the true
sense of the word, that Trump sits in the oval office. I would have thought
someone, somehow, would protect this country from a mentally ill man. For all
our checks and balances, we are certainly off kilter.
On another blind list I was frustrated with the rule that everything must be
blindness related. The moderator suggested this list for those with a
political bent. Everything today is so one sided, all or nothing. I believe
we should all understand each other if we have any chance of surviving.
Even the idea of needing to self-identify bothers me. This morning a man felt
it necessary to say he was a white male. That is because he knows we all make
wrong assumptions about white males and he was 'different'. I have to identify
as Catholic and I bet that puts a lot of preconceived notions in people's heads
about me. The internet could be a place where we all meet each other as blank
slates.
So I am seeking avenues to try to get to the heart of what people think in
today's society. The optimism I had with the peace and love generation ended
up here with a Trump in office. How did people get here? How can we get out
and make things better? I believe we must start on a one to one basis. It is
all we have.
I think the dialog between me and Roger is a great example. He stated openly
he expected me to say thus and so. He encounters pro-life people in a set way.
We need to go beyond the rhetoric and get to each other's soul....oh, sorry
Roger, connecting neurons. I was fascinated to read Bob's Muslim perspective.
We need to accept difference and realize common cores. So, smile, in answer to
your question, yes I am Catholic.
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:25 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Mary,
No, I’m not disappointed. Some of my most favorite social activists were
Catholics: The Berrigan Brothers, the Catholic workers, for example. I was
delighted with the Nuns on the Bus.
I gather from the way in which you write, that you are Catholic. Am I right?
Yes, I can tel some sad stories about how Catholic teachings affected people
negatively, just as I know similar stories about Jewish, Protestant, and Muslim
beliefs that have had negative effects. And I also know about all of the
positive effects.
Perhaps I should explain something. Unlike some other people on email lists,
I’m not here because I enjoy arguing or debates. I do enjoy exchanges of
opinions and I like to post articles which I find interesting. But I’m not
looking for controversy. I’m not here to criticize people’s beliefs or
philosophies. I have been trying, for all the years that I’ve been on this
list, and on some others, to relate respectfully to other people. The problem
is that communicating solely with the written word, can be challenging. The
correct feeling that one wants to communicate, doesn’t always come across
properly. Most of the time, Blind Democracy has been a warm, friendly, and
accepting place, but not always. We’ve had some expressions of anger or rage.
Some list members have left because they felt this was the wrong place for
them. One individual seemed to have joined, solely to be disruptive. But
somehow, we’re still here, at least some of us are.
Miriam
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 5:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Gee Marion, you sound almost disappointed that the Catholic Church is
proclaiming social consciousness. And they always have. This guy in a bit
more of a straight line. But I can't think of any other world wide institution
that does as good a job.
Now wait. Yes I know, there are a lot of screw ups. But there are among any
group, humanists included. And to say you remember Catholics affected by
church teachings?! Again, in any group some individuals can be treated, or
interpret teachings in a harmful way. That's life. Filled with flawed humans.
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:13 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
The decision related to medical insurance plans was that contraception is no
longer being required to cover contraception. Right now, this administration is
making more moves in that direction. If you can go to Walmart and fill a
prescription for a contraceptive pill for $4, you first need to acquire that
prescription from a physician. If you don’t have the funds to pay for the
medical appointment and your insurance won’t cover it, you won’t be able to
take a prescription anywhere to be filled. If you’re on Medicaid and Medicaid
doesn’t cover contraception, then you may not be able to afford contraception.
Because I am 80 years old, I clearly remember a time when it was difficult for
people to acquire effective contraception. I remember when it was almost
impossible for an unmarried woman to do so. I also clearly remember what life
was like for us before abortion was legalized. For me, the issue isn’t just an
abstract matter. I can tell stories about real people whose lives were
profoundly affected by the laws back then.
There’s a difference between the Catholic Church and the Religious Right and at
the moment, because of the particular Pope who heads the Church, the Catholic
Church has made much more liberal pronouncements than is usually the case. And,
of course, the Church, like every other institution, includes people with a
variety of views on the subject of birth control and abortion. But I also
remember how some very close friends of mine who were Catholic, were affected
by the Church’s teachings.
Miriam
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:42 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Anyone can walk into Walmart and purchase Plan B birth control for $4 without a
prescription. No script needed for spermicides. Or condoms. Get a script and
you can purchase the pill for $4.00 at Walmart. I don't see birth control is
restricted.
The Right to Life group is specialized but the Catholic Church is against
capital punishment, war, capitalism, and consumerism.
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 7:20 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
I overstated, but yes, I knew that not everyone in the organization protests in
front of clinics and not everyone who opposes abortion, is a member of the
organization. However, there are certainly political attempts to restrict birth
control right now, and there have been, for the past several years. The Supreme
Court supported one of them in a recent decision. I also find it ironic that
people who are concerned about the lives of unborn babies, take no position on
capital punishment. And I would also like to add that sometimes, what is
written down as official policy, may not be actual policy.
Miriam
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 6:53 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Well Miriam, I should have added that any one or any group (since we are social
creatures) can misuse any social institution. But I hold to account the flawed
people and not the core of the world's religions, as I posted ten common core
beliefs in all religions.
Your bring up Right to Life people and say the quote normally unquote protest
clinics and confront women. Please read the following:
National Right to Life Committee
The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) is a nonprofit organization that
seeks to end legalized
Abortion<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abortion> in the United
States. Founded in 1973, following the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Roe v.
Wade<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Roe+v.+Wade>, 410 U.S. 113,
93 S. Ct. 705, 35 L. Ed. 2d 147 (1973), which held that women had a
constitutional right to abortion, the NRLC has become the leading antiabortion
organization in the United States. It has more than 7 million members, with
3,000 local chapters and 50 state affiliates. It is headquartered in
Washington, D.C., and has an annual budget of more than $9 million. The
National Right to Life News, a biweekly newsletter, has a circulation of
135,000.
From its inception, the NRLC has sought the passage of a constitutional
amendment banning abortion. Though this effort has not been successful, the
NRLC has played an important role in state and federal legislation regulating
and restricting abortion, and has been instrumental in restricting government
funding of abortions to poor women. The NRLC has a Political Action
Committee<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Political+Action+Committee>
that endorses and campaigns for candidates who support its agenda, which
includes opposition to some forms of Birth
Control<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Birth+Control> as well as
physician-assisted suicide. The committee states that it does not take a
position on issues such as contraception, sex education, Capital
Punishment<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+punishment>,
and national defense.
So Miriam, you will note there are seven million members of the national life
organization. I would contend they all do not normally, as you said, protest
at clinics. I would guess a very small percentage does and then the far
radical groups are even a smaller number. This is not to take a position on
the organization itself but to illustrate our reality is based on many of our
biases. Note they also object to SOME forms of birth control, not all. Would
you have guessed that? It takes no position on sex education, capital
punishment or national defense. Bet you wouldn't have thought that either.
Our society is way too anxious to have an us v. them, all or nothing, very
bellicose dialog. That will be our down fall. Both political parties have
taken their corners to use a boxing analogy and has left the gaping middle ring
for a Trump to raise his arm in victory. I read recently an article by a
leader of the DNC who proclaimed, if you don't believe in abortion we don't
want you in our party. And over the years, indeed, much to their detriment,
the Democrats have lost the conservative on some issue but generally very
socially liberal Catholic who helped JFK win office. We have to start
embracing diversity within our own groups, true diversity in thought and ideas,
not only race or religion.
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 4:01 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Mary,
Yes, that’s true. But it isn’t just one individual. The novel follows one
individual, but it also talks about a real group called, “The Army of God”,
and members of this group have, in fact, murdered abortion providers. They do
so in the belief that they are saving the lives of unborn babies. The people
who belong to “Right To Life” groups are usually Evangelical Christians and
very conservative Catholics and normally, they protest in front of clinics
where abortions are performed and they attempt to approach individual women who
are about to enter the clinics and try to convince them not to do so. But in
these groups, there are some even more extreme people who believe that killing
doctors who provide abortions, is justified. Every religion has extreme sects
and in each of these are even more extreme fringe groups, and additionally,
there are individuals in every religion who are mentally ill and whose illness
causes them to misconstrue religious teaching. The character in the book I’m
reading, does have emotional problems which caused him to be attracted to the
people who advocated killing abortion providers. But in reality, when one tries
to speak objectively about these issues, it becomes very difficult to separate
out religious faith from pathology in some cases. Let me hasten to tell you
something about me because you are new to this list and don’t know me. I’m a
retired social worker and when I attended social work school a very long time
ago, I did have to learn a good deal about psychology and human behavior. I
suppose that the other thing you should know about me is that my background is
Jewish, but I’m a secular person and the most accurate description of my
personal beliefs of philosophy would be “secular humanism”. But that’s my own
personal philosophy and I recognize that people experience reality in a variety
of ways.
Miriam
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 3:31 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Any social institution can be mis-used by any one of the millions of flawed
humans that follow it. In this case the murderer took the religious principal
of holding sacred life and polluted it with his own mental instability.
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 12:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
I'm reading a really long, ponderous novel by Joyce Carol Oates called A Book
Of Martyrs. Well, Joyce Carol Oates tends to write in a ponderous manner. But
if one can manage to get through it, the book has a lot to say. It's about the
assassination of a doctor who works in women's centers in the mid west and who,
among other medical services, provides abortions. The book describes the man
who murdered the doctor and the man's family, including their religious
beliefs, psychological motivations, and socio-economic status. It also
describes the doctor, his family, and the details of their lives and beliefs.
This is really a picture of the great divide in our society, in terms of
educational status and cultural identity and although it has something to do
with social class, it is not related to the way in which people on this list
and in typical political discourse, refer to class. There really seems to be no
meeting ground because the basic assumptions of these two groups are so
different. But in relation to our discussion about folks feeling so sure that
they are right while people with the opposite view are wrong, in the story, the
man who is convinced that killing an abortion provider is what Jesus wants him
to do, has no concern as to what the consequences of his act will be for his
wife and children. On the other side of the coin, the doctor who performs
abortions, is aware that his life is in danger. Other abortion providers have
been killed. His wife is begging him to stop doing this work because she's
afraid that he, too, will be killed and he has already provided this service
for many years. But he feels that his skills are badly needed and that the time
has not yet arrived for him to stop. In other words, he too, is being called to
do what he does and he does not consider the consequences to his wife and
children. In the end, both men die and their families are permanently damaged.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 11:11 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc:
"Undisclosed-Recipient:,"@freelists.org<mailto:%22Undisclosed-Recipient:,%22@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
There is nothing so futile as an exercise in futility.
And once again we prove it. There are two hard and true facts in any
discussion of this nature. 1. I am right!
2. Everyone else is wrong!
Each of us, regardless of our basic Beliefs, become a Missionary, setting out
to demonstrate the "rightnous" of our Belief, and the "wrongness" of everyone
else. Sometimes we are gentle in our attack on everyone else, and sometimes we
become rather nasty. But always it is from the position of each of us being
Right, and everyone else, Wrong!
And when we are not defending our Belief, by attacking all others, we are
wondering why people can't seem to get along.
Now I'm not a Believer any longer. My reason for leaving the Faith was due to
this very demonstration. I awoke from a deep dream one morning and asked
myself, "Self! What sort of Almighty Creator would allow Humans to gather in
little self righteous groups and spend thousands of years fighting each other?
But that's me, and I came to my present place in thought in my own way and in
my own time. To my simple mind, that is the only way each of us will resolve
this discussion. And then it will not matter what others believe, just so long
as they do not believe that they are obligated to kill me if I do not believe
as they do.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/8/17, Bob <ebob824@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ebob824@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hello. This is Bob Evans. I'm the author of the editorial attached below.
Please, read, fathom and if you wish, interact.
Bob Evans
______
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