I do give thought to the political implications of historical periods
like the reformation, but I think the author of that book you read got
it backwards. Religion is a complex set of superstitions that comprise
an ideology the main function of which is the justification of the
prevailing class society. At the time of the reformation the class
contradictions in the feudal order had come to a head and bourgeois
revolutions were just beginning. If we can borrow the phrase punctuated
equilibrium from Stephen J. Gould it was time for a punctuation in
history. The Catholic church did its ideological job of defending the
old order, an order that was crumbling. The upheavals were economic in
nature, of course, but given the stranglehold religion had on every
aspect of society most people could only express their positions in
religious terms and so religious wars broke out. The basis of these wars
and revolutions were economic, but they were expressed in religious
terms. The big bourgeois revolutions finished toward the end of the
eighteenth century with the American and French revolutions and by then
the disputes could be expressed in terms of economics much better than
they could in the past. Bourgeois revolutions did continue into the
nineteenth century though. Some of the big ones then were the
revolutions of 1848 and the second American revolution, more commonly
known as the American civil war. By that time it would have been very
hard to characterize these revolutions as religious wars even if
religious sects did take their sides. What it comes down to is that
rather than the reformation causing capitalism it was capitalism that
caused the reformation. Now, I know that capitalism had not developed to
any great extent at the time, but still the wars and revolutions that
broke out were part of a rebellion against unjust economic conditions
and so capitalism and Protestantism developed together. A new class
system was coming into being and religion, as an ideology for the
justification of the prevailing class society, had to change in order to
justify the new class society. Within the religious wars the Catholic
church did represent the reactionary forces, but once the revolutionary
forces won out the Catholic church had to change to accommodate the new
class reality too.
On 10/11/2017 4:23 PM, MARY CONVY wrote:
Marion, I also have a point to make about your comment that we are not taught to act as a community but as individuals seeking wealth. I recently read a history of Luther. It was written as history and not at all as a religious explanation of the era, by a man claiming no religious preference but wanting to present a totally historical viewpoint. He believed that without the Reformation we would not have the United States develop politically as it did. The Reformation, which stressed individualism, hard work on one's own behalf, the typical WASP thinking, made capitalism possible. Our Great Experiment in Democracy and Capitalism would have been impossible if the Catholic Church kept control. People usually concentrate on all the flaws of practice in the Catholic Church that Luther saw as needing to be changed, but he didn't realize the very foundation of society of the time and its political institutions would also be totally changed. I had never given much thought to the political effects of the Reformation, just the religious.
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*From:* blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 11, 2017 11:37 AM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Mary,
I asked if you were Catholic because it seemed to me, from the things that you wrote, that you are. Since I’ve had relationships with many Catholic people over the years, and one of my oldest friends is a Catholic Dominican Sister, I have no preconceptions about what people who say they are Catholic, believe.
One of the problems that I have with internet communication, is the depersonalization that it fosters. My belief is that part of the sickness of our society is that it’s huge and bureaucratic, and that people do not relate to each other as members of a caring community because they have been encouraged by our institutions, to function as individuals seeking wealth and security, only for themselves. The connectedness that they think they have from the internet is, in many cases, an illusion. On this very small list, we have always known a good deal about each other which is probably why we can forgive each other’s foibles. It is really different from other lists. We are self moderating. At this point in time. We don’t have rules about what can be discussed or what articles can be posted. Most of us are blind, and left of center politically. But we have two sighted members. One of our members is still , I think, a practicing Catholic and his politics are right of center. And we have members who never post so I have no idea who they are or what they think.
Miriam
*From:* blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY CONVY
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:25 AM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Oh I love the Nuns on a Bus and am glad you know of them. Yes, I am Catholic and just as any institution in my life I have gained much but have also seen atrocities. I do my tiny bit and try to make things better.
I joined this list to learn. Since I retired I have found, with all my education and degrees and life experience, there is so much I don't know. I was a History Gold Medalists in school and now tend to read history and historical fiction and I enjoy almost daily learning something new.
Along with history politics aligns closely. I am scandalized, in the true sense of the word, that Trump sits in the oval office. I would have thought someone, somehow, would protect this country from a mentally ill man. For all our checks and balances, we are certainly off kilter.
On another blind list I was frustrated with the rule that everything must be blindness related. The moderator suggested this list for those with a political bent. Everything today is so one sided, all or nothing. I believe we should all understand each other if we have any chance of surviving.
Even the idea of needing to self-identify bothers me. This morning a man felt it necessary to say he was a white male. That is because he knows we all make wrong assumptions about white males and he was 'different'. I have to identify as Catholic and I bet that puts a lot of preconceived notions in people's heads about me. The internet could be a place where we all meet each other as blank slates.
So I am seeking avenues to try to get to the heart of what people think in today's society. The optimism I had with the peace and love generation ended up here with a Trump in office. How did people get here? How can we get out and make things better? I believe we must start on a one to one basis. It is all we have.
I think the dialog between me and Roger is a great example. He stated openly he expected me to say thus and so. He encounters pro-life people in a set way. We need to go beyond the rhetoric and get to each other's soul....oh, sorry Roger, connecting neurons. I was fascinated to read Bob's Muslim perspective. We need to accept difference and realize common cores. So, smile, in answer to your question, yes I am Catholic.
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*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:25 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Mary,
No, I’m not disappointed. Some of my most favorite social activists were Catholics: The Berrigan Brothers, the Catholic workers, for example. I was delighted with the Nuns on the Bus.
I gather from the way in which you write, that you are Catholic. Am I right?
Yes, I can tel some sad stories about how Catholic teachings affected people negatively, just as I know similar stories about Jewish, Protestant, and Muslim beliefs that have had negative effects. And I also know about all of the positive effects.
Perhaps I should explain something. Unlike some other people on email lists, I’m not here because I enjoy arguing or debates. I do enjoy exchanges of opinions and I like to post articles which I find interesting. But I’m not looking for controversy. I’m not here to criticize people’s beliefs or philosophies. I have been trying, for all the years that I’ve been on this list, and on some others, to relate respectfully to other people. The problem is that communicating solely with the written word, can be challenging. The correct feeling that one wants to communicate, doesn’t always come across properly. Most of the time, Blind Democracy has been a warm, friendly, and accepting place, but not always. We’ve had some expressions of anger or rage. Some list members have left because they felt this was the wrong place for them. One individual seemed to have joined, solely to be disruptive. But somehow, we’re still here, at least some of us are.
Miriam
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY CONVY
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Gee Marion, you sound almost disappointed that the Catholic Church is proclaiming social consciousness. And they always have. This guy in a bit more of a straight line. But I can't think of any other world wide institution that does as good a job.
Now wait. Yes I know, there are a lot of screw ups. But there are among any group, humanists included. And to say you remember Catholics affected by church teachings?! Again, in any group some individuals can be treated, or interpret teachings in a harmful way. That's life. Filled with flawed humans.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:13 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
The decision related to medical insurance plans was that contraception is no longer being required to cover contraception. Right now, this administration is making more moves in that direction. If you can go to Walmart and fill a prescription for a contraceptive pill for $4, you first need to acquire that prescription from a physician. If you don’t have the funds to pay for the medical appointment and your insurance won’t cover it, you won’t be able to take a prescription anywhere to be filled. If you’re on Medicaid and Medicaid doesn’t cover contraception, then you may not be able to afford contraception. Because I am 80 years old, I clearly remember a time when it was difficult for people to acquire effective contraception. I remember when it was almost impossible for an unmarried woman to do so. I also clearly remember what life was like for us before abortion was legalized. For me, the issue isn’t just an abstract matter. I can tell stories about real people whose lives were profoundly affected by the laws back then.
There’s a difference between the Catholic Church and the Religious Right and at the moment, because of the particular Pope who heads the Church, the Catholic Church has made much more liberal pronouncements than is usually the case. And, of course, the Church, like every other institution, includes people with a variety of views on the subject of birth control and abortion. But I also remember how some very close friends of mine who were Catholic, were affected by the Church’s teachings.
Miriam
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY CONVY
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:42 AM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Anyone can walk into Walmart and purchase Plan B birth control for $4 without a prescription. No script needed for spermicides. Or condoms. Get a script and you can purchase the pill for $4.00 at Walmart. I don't see birth control is restricted.
The Right to Life group is specialized but the Catholic Church is against capital punishment, war, capitalism, and consumerism.
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*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 7:20 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
I overstated, but yes, I knew that not everyone in the organization protests in front of clinics and not everyone who opposes abortion, is a member of the organization. However, there are certainly political attempts to restrict birth control right now, and there have been, for the past several years. The Supreme Court supported one of them in a recent decision. I also find it ironic that people who are concerned about the lives of unborn babies, take no position on capital punishment. And I would also like to add that sometimes, what is written down as official policy, may not be actual policy.
Miriam
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY CONVY
*Sent:* Monday, October 09, 2017 6:53 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Well Miriam, I should have added that any one or any group (since we are social creatures) can misuse any social institution. But I hold to account the flawed people and not the core of the world's religions, as I posted ten common core beliefs in all religions.
Your bring up Right to Life people and say the quote normally unquote protest clinics and confront women. Please read the following:
National Right to Life Committee
The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) is a nonprofit organization that seeks to end legalized Abortion <http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abortion> in the United States. Founded in 1973, following the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade <http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Roe+v.+Wade>, 410 U.S. 113, 93 S. Ct. 705, 35 L. Ed. 2d 147 (1973), which held that women had a constitutional right to abortion, the NRLC has become the leading antiabortion organization in the United States. It has more than 7 million members, with 3,000 local chapters and 50 state affiliates. It is headquartered in Washington, D.C., and has an annual budget of more than $9 million. The /National Right to Life News/, a biweekly newsletter, has a circulation of 135,000.
From its inception, the NRLC has sought the passage of a constitutional amendment banning abortion. Though this effort has not been successful, the NRLC has played an important role in state and federal legislation regulating and restricting abortion, and has been instrumental in restricting government funding of abortions to poor women. The NRLC has a Political Action Committee <http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Political+Action+Committee> that endorses and campaigns for candidates who support its agenda, which includes opposition to some forms of Birth Control <http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Birth+Control> as well as physician-assisted suicide. The committee states that it does not take a position on issues such as contraception, sex education, Capital Punishment <http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+punishment>, and national defense.
So Miriam, you will note there are seven million members of the national life organization. I would contend they all do not normally, as you said, protest at clinics. I would guess a very small percentage does and then the far radical groups are even a smaller number. This is not to take a position on the organization itself but to illustrate our reality is based on many of our biases. Note they also object to SOME forms of birth control, not all. Would you have guessed that? It takes no position on sex education, capital punishment or national defense. Bet you wouldn't have thought that either.
Our society is way too anxious to have an us v. them, all or nothing, very bellicose dialog. That will be our down fall. Both political parties have taken their corners to use a boxing analogy and has left the gaping middle ring for a Trump to raise his arm in victory. I read recently an article by a leader of the DNC who proclaimed, if you don't believe in abortion we don't want you in our party. And over the years, indeed, much to their detriment, the Democrats have lost the conservative on some issue but generally very socially liberal Catholic who helped JFK win office. We have to start embracing diversity within our own groups, true diversity in thought and ideas, not only race or religion.
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*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 4:01 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Mary,
Yes, that’s true. But it isn’t just one individual. The novel follows one individual, but it also talks about a real group called, “The Army of God”, and members of this group have, in fact, murdered abortion providers. They do so in the belief that they are saving the lives of unborn babies. The people who belong to “Right To Life” groups are usually Evangelical Christians and very conservative Catholics and normally, they protest in front of clinics where abortions are performed and they attempt to approach individual women who are about to enter the clinics and try to convince them not to do so. But in these groups, there are some even more extreme people who believe that killing doctors who provide abortions, is justified. Every religion has extreme sects and in each of these are even more extreme fringe groups, and additionally, there are individuals in every religion who are mentally ill and whose illness causes them to misconstrue religious teaching. The character in the book I’m reading, does have emotional problems which caused him to be attracted to the people who advocated killing abortion providers. But in reality, when one tries to speak objectively about these issues, it becomes very difficult to separate out religious faith from pathology in some cases. Let me hasten to tell you something about me because you are new to this list and don’t know me. I’m a retired social worker and when I attended social work school a very long time ago, I did have to learn a good deal about psychology and human behavior. I suppose that the other thing you should know about me is that my background is Jewish, but I’m a secular person and the most accurate description of my personal beliefs of philosophy would be “secular humanism”. But that’s my own personal philosophy and I recognize that people experience reality in a variety of ways.
Miriam
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY CONVY
*Sent:* Monday, October 09, 2017 3:31 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Any social institution can be mis-used by any one of the millions of flawed humans that follow it. In this case the murderer took the religious principal of holding sacred life and polluted it with his own mental instability.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 12:14 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
I'm reading a really long, ponderous novel by Joyce Carol Oates called A Book Of Martyrs. Well, Joyce Carol Oates tends to write in a ponderous manner. But if one can manage to get through it, the book has a lot to say. It's about the assassination of a doctor who works in women's centers in the mid west and who, among other medical services, provides abortions. The book describes the man who murdered the doctor and the man's family, including their religious beliefs, psychological motivations, and socio-economic status. It also describes the doctor, his family, and the details of their lives and beliefs. This is really a picture of the great divide in our society, in terms of educational status and cultural identity and although it has something to do with social class, it is not related to the way in which people on this list and in typical political discourse, refer to class. There really seems to be no meeting ground because the basic assumptions of these two groups are so different. But in relation to our discussion about folks feeling so sure that they are right while people with the opposite view are wrong, in the story, the man who is convinced that killing an abortion provider is what Jesus wants him to do, has no concern as to what the consequences of his act will be for his wife and children. On the other side of the coin, the doctor who performs abortions, is aware that his life is in danger. Other abortion providers have been killed. His wife is begging him to stop doing this work because she's afraid that he, too, will be killed and he has already provided this service for many years. But he feels that his skills are badly needed and that the time has not yet arrived for him to stop. In other words, he too, is being called to do what he does and he does not consider the consequences to his wife and children. In the end, both men die and their families are permanently damaged.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 11:11 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Undisclosed-Recipient:,"@freelists.org <mailto:%22Undisclosed-Recipient:,%22@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for evangelists
There is nothing so futile as an exercise in futility.
And once again we prove it. There are two hard and true facts in any discussion of this nature. 1. I am right!
2. Everyone else is wrong!
Each of us, regardless of our basic Beliefs, become a Missionary, setting out to demonstrate the "rightnous" of our Belief, and the "wrongness" of everyone else. Sometimes we are gentle in our attack on everyone else, and sometimes we become rather nasty. But always it is from the position of each of us being Right, and everyone else, Wrong!
And when we are not defending our Belief, by attacking all others, we are wondering why people can't seem to get along.
Now I'm not a Believer any longer. My reason for leaving the Faith was due to this very demonstration. I awoke from a deep dream one morning and asked myself, "Self! What sort of Almighty Creator would allow Humans to gather in little self righteous groups and spend thousands of years fighting each other?
But that's me, and I came to my present place in thought in my own way and in my own time. To my simple mind, that is the only way each of us will resolve this discussion. And then it will not matter what others believe, just so long as they do not believe that they are obligated to kill me if I do not believe as they do.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/8/17, Bob <ebob824@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ebob824@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> Hello. This is Bob Evans. I'm the author of the editorial attached below.
> Please, read, fathom and if you wish, interact.
>
> Bob Evans
>
> ______
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
