Mary,
Roger would know how many members this group presently had because he is the
person who kindly saved the group when it lost its internet service provider
and owner. At the same time, its moderator resigned from his position as
moderator. Roger had the technical skill to set up the group on Freelists
and he monitors and troubleshoots so we can keep going.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 4:10 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Miriam,
Marion, I was hoping for a medium size list where there were many points of
view. I hope when you say small, it's not too small. The larger political
lists are usually so filled with anger and/or trolls it is ridiculous.
People are not interested in hearing what others think. I belong to a
social group that meets weekly for lunch. One person (not me!) forwarded an
e-mail to the group of a political nature. Several people, of the opposite
leaning, now dropped out of the group and won't attend lunch! For an
e-mail. That comes with a delete key. It's that all or nothing approach I
keep complaining about. The e-mail made me want to engage the person
further, to understand her thinking.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 11:37 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Mary,
I asked if you were Catholic because it seemed to me, from the things that
you wrote, that you are. Since I've had relationships with many Catholic
people over the years, and one of my oldest friends is a Catholic Dominican
Sister, I have no preconceptions about what people who say they are
Catholic, believe.
One of the problems that I have with internet communication, is the
depersonalization that it fosters. My belief is that part of the sickness of
our society is that it's huge and bureaucratic, and that people do not
relate to each other as members of a caring community because they have been
encouraged by our institutions, to function as individuals seeking wealth
and security, only for themselves. The connectedness that they think they
have from the internet is, in many cases, an illusion. On this very small
list, we have always known a good deal about each other which is probably
why we can forgive each other's foibles. It is really different from other
lists. We are self moderating. At this point in time. We don't have rules
about what can be discussed or what articles can be posted. Most of us are
blind, and left of center politically. But we have two sighted members. One
of our members is still , I think, a practicing Catholic and his politics
are right of center. And we have members who never post so I have no idea
who they are or what they think.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:25 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Miriam,
Oh I love the Nuns on a Bus and am glad you know of them. Yes, I am
Catholic and just as any institution in my life I have gained much but have
also seen atrocities. I do my tiny bit and try to make things better.
I joined this list to learn. Since I retired I have found, with all my
education and degrees and life experience, there is so much I don't know. I
was a History Gold Medalists in school and now tend to read history and
historical fiction and I enjoy almost daily learning something new.
Along with history politics aligns closely. I am scandalized, in the true
sense of the word, that Trump sits in the oval office. I would have thought
someone, somehow, would protect this country from a mentally ill man. For
all our checks and balances, we are certainly off kilter.
On another blind list I was frustrated with the rule that everything must be
blindness related. The moderator suggested this list for those with a
political bent. Everything today is so one sided, all or nothing. I
believe we should all understand each other if we have any chance of
surviving.
Even the idea of needing to self-identify bothers me. This morning a man
felt it necessary to say he was a white male. That is because he knows we
all make wrong assumptions about white males and he was 'different'. I have
to identify as Catholic and I bet that puts a lot of preconceived notions in
people's heads about me. The internet could be a place where we all meet
each other as blank slates.
So I am seeking avenues to try to get to the heart of what people think in
today's society. The optimism I had with the peace and love generation
ended up here with a Trump in office. How did people get here? How can we
get out and make things better? I believe we must start on a one to one
basis. It is all we have.
I think the dialog between me and Roger is a great example. He stated
openly he expected me to say thus and so. He encounters pro-life people in
a set way. We need to go beyond the rhetoric and get to each other's
soul....oh, sorry Roger, connecting neurons. I was fascinated to read Bob's
Muslim perspective. We need to accept difference and realize common cores.
So, smile, in answer to your question, yes I am Catholic.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:25 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Mary,
No, I'm not disappointed. Some of my most favorite social activists were
Catholics: The Berrigan Brothers, the Catholic workers, for example. I was
delighted with the Nuns on the Bus.
I gather from the way in which you write, that you are Catholic. Am I right?
Yes, I can tel some sad stories about how Catholic teachings affected people
negatively, just as I know similar stories about Jewish, Protestant, and
Muslim beliefs that have had negative effects. And I also know about all of
the positive effects.
Perhaps I should explain something. Unlike some other people on email lists,
I'm not here because I enjoy arguing or debates. I do enjoy exchanges of
opinions and I like to post articles which I find interesting. But I'm not
looking for controversy. I'm not here to criticize people's beliefs or
philosophies. I have been trying, for all the years that I've been on this
list, and on some others, to relate respectfully to other people. The
problem is that communicating solely with the written word, can be
challenging. The correct feeling that one wants to communicate, doesn't
always come across properly. Most of the time, Blind Democracy has been a
warm, friendly, and accepting place, but not always. We've had some
expressions of anger or rage. Some list members have left because they felt
this was the wrong place for them. One individual seemed to have joined,
solely to be disruptive. But somehow, we're still here, at least some of us
are.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 5:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Gee Marion, you sound almost disappointed that the Catholic Church is
proclaiming social consciousness. And they always have. This guy in a bit
more of a straight line. But I can't think of any other world wide
institution that does as good a job.
Now wait. Yes I know, there are a lot of screw ups. But there are among any
group, humanists included. And to say you remember Catholics affected by
church teachings?! Again, in any group some individuals can be treated, or
interpret teachings in a harmful way. That's life. Filled with flawed
humans.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:13 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
The decision related to medical insurance plans was that contraception is no
longer being required to cover contraception. Right now, this administration
is making more moves in that direction. If you can go to Walmart and fill a
prescription for a contraceptive pill for $4, you first need to acquire that
prescription from a physician. If you don't have the funds to pay for the
medical appointment and your insurance won't cover it, you won't be able to
take a prescription anywhere to be filled. If you're on Medicaid and
Medicaid doesn't cover contraception, then you may not be able to afford
contraception. Because I am 80 years old, I clearly remember a time when it
was difficult for people to acquire effective contraception. I remember when
it was almost impossible for an unmarried woman to do so. I also clearly
remember what life was like for us before abortion was legalized. For me,
the issue isn't just an abstract matter. I can tell stories about real
people whose lives were profoundly affected by the laws back then.
There's a difference between the Catholic Church and the Religious Right and
at the moment, because of the particular Pope who heads the Church, the
Catholic Church has made much more liberal pronouncements than is usually
the case. And, of course, the Church, like every other institution, includes
people with a variety of views on the subject of birth control and abortion.
But I also remember how some very close friends of mine who were Catholic,
were affected by the Church's teachings.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:42 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Miriam,
Anyone can walk into Walmart and purchase Plan B birth control for $4
without a prescription. No script needed for spermicides. Or condoms. Get
a script and you can purchase the pill for $4.00 at Walmart. I don't see
birth control is restricted.
The Right to Life group is specialized but the Catholic Church is against
capital punishment, war, capitalism, and consumerism.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 7:20 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
I overstated, but yes, I knew that not everyone in the organization protests
in front of clinics and not everyone who opposes abortion, is a member of
the organization. However, there are certainly political attempts to
restrict birth control right now, and there have been, for the past several
years. The Supreme Court supported one of them in a recent decision. I also
find it ironic that people who are concerned about the lives of unborn
babies, take no position on capital punishment. And I would also like to add
that sometimes, what is written down as official policy, may not be actual
policy.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 6:53 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Well Miriam, I should have added that any one or any group (since we are
social creatures) can misuse any social institution. But I hold to account
the flawed people and not the core of the world's religions, as I posted ten
common core beliefs in all religions.
Your bring up Right to Life people and say the quote normally unquote
protest clinics and confront women. Please read the following:
National Right to Life Committee
The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) is a nonprofit organization that
seeks to end legalized Abortion
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abortion> in the United
States. Founded in 1973, following the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Roe
v. Wade <http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Roe+v.+Wade> , 410
U.S. 113, 93 S. Ct. 705, 35 L. Ed. 2d 147 (1973), which held that women had
a constitutional right to abortion, the NRLC has become the leading
antiabortion organization in the United States. It has more than 7 million
members, with 3,000 local chapters and 50 state affiliates. It is
headquartered in Washington, D.C., and has an annual budget of more than $9
million. The National Right to Life News, a biweekly newsletter, has a
circulation of 135,000.
From its inception, the NRLC has sought the passage of a constitutional
amendment banning abortion. Though this effort has not been successful, the
NRLC has played an important role in state and federal legislation
regulating and restricting abortion, and has been instrumental in
restricting government funding of abortions to poor women. The NRLC has a
Political Action Committee
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Political+Action+Committee>
that endorses and campaigns for candidates who support its agenda, which
includes opposition to some forms of Birth Control
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Birth+Control> as well as
physician-assisted suicide. The committee states that it does not take a
position on issues such as contraception, sex education, Capital Punishment
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+punishment> , and
national defense.
So Miriam, you will note there are seven million members of the national
life organization. I would contend they all do not normally, as you said,
protest at clinics. I would guess a very small percentage does and then the
far radical groups are even a smaller number. This is not to take a
position on the organization itself but to illustrate our reality is based
on many of our biases. Note they also object to SOME forms of birth
control, not all. Would you have guessed that? It takes no position on sex
education, capital punishment or national defense. Bet you wouldn't have
thought that either.
Our society is way too anxious to have an us v. them, all or nothing, very
bellicose dialog. That will be our down fall. Both political parties have
taken their corners to use a boxing analogy and has left the gaping middle
ring for a Trump to raise his arm in victory. I read recently an article by
a leader of the DNC who proclaimed, if you don't believe in abortion we
don't want you in our party. And over the years, indeed, much to their
detriment, the Democrats have lost the conservative on some issue but
generally very socially liberal Catholic who helped JFK win office. We have
to start embracing diversity within our own groups, true diversity in
thought and ideas, not only race or religion.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 4:01 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Mary,
Yes, that's true. But it isn't just one individual. The novel follows one
individual, but it also talks about a real group called, "The Army of God",
and members of this group have, in fact, murdered abortion providers. They
do so in the belief that they are saving the lives of unborn babies. The
people who belong to "Right To Life" groups are usually Evangelical
Christians and very conservative Catholics and normally, they protest in
front of clinics where abortions are performed and they attempt to approach
individual women who are about to enter the clinics and try to convince them
not to do so. But in these groups, there are some even more extreme people
who believe that killing doctors who provide abortions, is justified. Every
religion has extreme sects and in each of these are even more extreme fringe
groups, and additionally, there are individuals in every religion who are
mentally ill and whose illness causes them to misconstrue religious
teaching. The character in the book I'm reading, does have emotional
problems which caused him to be attracted to the people who advocated
killing abortion providers. But in reality, when one tries to speak
objectively about these issues, it becomes very difficult to separate out
religious faith from pathology in some cases. Let me hasten to tell you
something about me because you are new to this list and don't know me. I'm a
retired social worker and when I attended social work school a very long
time ago, I did have to learn a good deal about psychology and human
behavior. I suppose that the other thing you should know about me is that my
background is Jewish, but I'm a secular person and the most accurate
description of my personal beliefs of philosophy would be "secular
humanism". But that's my own personal philosophy and I recognize that people
experience reality in a variety of ways.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 3:31 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Miriam,
Any social institution can be mis-used by any one of the millions of flawed
humans that follow it. In this case the murderer took the religious
principal of holding sacred life and polluted it with his own mental
instability.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 12:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
I'm reading a really long, ponderous novel by Joyce Carol Oates called A
Book Of Martyrs. Well, Joyce Carol Oates tends to write in a ponderous
manner. But if one can manage to get through it, the book has a lot to say.
It's about the assassination of a doctor who works in women's centers in the
mid west and who, among other medical services, provides abortions. The book
describes the man who murdered the doctor and the man's family, including
their religious beliefs, psychological motivations, and socio-economic
status. It also describes the doctor, his family, and the details of their
lives and beliefs. This is really a picture of the great divide in our
society, in terms of educational status and cultural identity and although
it has something to do with social class, it is not related to the way in
which people on this list and in typical political discourse, refer to
class. There really seems to be no meeting ground because the basic
assumptions of these two groups are so different. But in relation to our
discussion about folks feeling so sure that they are right while people with
the opposite view are wrong, in the story, the man who is convinced that
killing an abortion provider is what Jesus wants him to do, has no concern
as to what the consequences of his act will be for his wife and children. On
the other side of the coin, the doctor who performs abortions, is aware that
his life is in danger. Other abortion providers have been killed. His wife
is begging him to stop doing this work because she's afraid that he, too,
will be killed and he has already provided this service for many years. But
he feels that his skills are badly needed and that the time has not yet
arrived for him to stop. In other words, he too, is being called to do what
he does and he does not consider the consequences to his wife and children.
In the end, both men die and their families are permanently damaged.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 11:11 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <mailto:%22Undisclosed-Recipient:,%22@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Undisclosed-Recipient:,"@freelists.org
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
There is nothing so futile as an exercise in futility.
And once again we prove it. There are two hard and true facts in any
discussion of this nature. 1. I am right!
2. Everyone else is wrong!
Each of us, regardless of our basic Beliefs, become a Missionary, setting
out to demonstrate the "rightnous" of our Belief, and the "wrongness" of
everyone else. Sometimes we are gentle in our attack on everyone else, and
sometimes we become rather nasty. But always it is from the position of
each of us being Right, and everyone else, Wrong!
And when we are not defending our Belief, by attacking all others, we are
wondering why people can't seem to get along.
Now I'm not a Believer any longer. My reason for leaving the Faith was due
to this very demonstration. I awoke from a deep dream one morning and asked
myself, "Self! What sort of Almighty Creator would allow Humans to gather
in little self righteous groups and spend thousands of years fighting each
other?
But that's me, and I came to my present place in thought in my own way and
in my own time. To my simple mind, that is the only way each of us will
resolve this discussion. And then it will not matter what others believe,
just so long as they do not believe that they are obligated to kill me if I
do not believe as they do.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/8/17, Bob <ebob824@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ebob824@xxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
Hello. This is Bob Evans. I'm the author of the editorial attached below.
Please, read, fathom and if you wish, interact.
Bob Evans
______
---
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