As I keep telling you, I am offering suggestions and my suggestions may
be worthwhile and they may not be. Again, I am not a computer whiz. If
what I suggest doesn't work it just doesn't work and that is no reason
to fly off the handle at me. As for getting Gmail to work with your
email program, like I said, I did not know which email program you were
using and even if I did I don't know how to configure it to work with
Gmail. I have been using Thunderbird for long enough now that I have
forgotten how to do it with other email programs, but I did say that if
you got it configured so that it worked with your other email address
then you do it the very same way with Gmail. I don't know of any reason
it should be different. As for why I didn't subscribe you, I can't. I
remember when I was setting up the list there was a note I came across
in the process that said that it was possible for list owners to
subscribe people in the past, but that had been disabled because some
list moderators had been abusing the function, probably spamming people.
Remember that when I set up the list we took a lot of trouble trying to
contact everyone and give them information about how to subscribe. If I
had been able to subscribe them I would have just subscribed everyone on
the old list and have been done with it. As for my not understanding
these vague concepts like tone, yes, I do know that there is something
that I am not getting and I have had to deal with that frustration all
my life, but knowing that I don't get it does not help me in the least
to get it. All I was trying to do was to offer friendly suggestions that
might help you get your email problem worked out. I had no way to know
which suggestions you had tried and which you had not tried. I do know
that you have made statements in the past that you will not try some
things because you have a prior conviction that you will not be able to
do it. I don't know how you can be so sure of that if you do not even
try. You might, indeed, fail and have to give up, but if you don't even
try you don't know that is going to happen. I also know that you have
said these same things about tasks that I know from experience is really
easy like using Firefox as a backup browser. For the purpose that it was
being suggested that you try it it would work just like Internet
Explorer, so there was no learning to even do. Yet, you just claimed
that you could not learn it and would not try. But what I am facing here
is that I just offered some friendly suggestions. That is what people do
every day on email lists when someone has a technical problem. Then you
had a fit. This fit included that I was calling you a lazy fool. I did
not! I can't even see anything in what I said that could be construed
that way with an extreme stretch. I am sorry, Miriam, but you launched
into a completely unwarranted attack on me that had nothing to do with
reality. Yes, that is highly insulting. When someone offers you help the
offered help may not be what you need, but you should never meet a
friendly offer with such hostility. That is the kind of thing that may
cause the help to dry up. Save your tantrums for when someone really
does do something nasty to you.
On 6/4/2016 5:20 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
This is off list. I don't even know if my messages will get to the list
because Roger says I was unsubscribed. So Roger, when you saw that all
those messages of mine were blocked because I was unsubscribed, wy didn't
you just subscribe me? I was unsubscribed because I took your advice and
unsubscribed. Never received notification that it worked. Tried to subscribe
again and obviously, that didn't work. Subscribed with my g mail address,
but although that may have worked because I found the notification and
responded, it's too difficult for me to use the g mail.
Roger, the issue isn't that I don't appreciate help, nor that I reject it
when it's given. The issue is that the help that one offers, has to meet the
needs of the person being helped. People have different abilities. Not
everyone can learn everything. And people learn in different ways. People
have different talents and different capabilities. You seem to think that if
you keep repeating the same explanation over and over again, that you're
helping. You were giving me all these explanations without knowing what I'd
done, what my experience was when I went to that G mail site. Even though
I've said many times on this and other lists, that I have a lot of
difficulty with technology, that learning this stuff is hard for me, you
seem to insist that if I just try harder, somehow my capabilities will
change. Frank indicated, purely by chance, that I can access the g mail
account through the email program that I am using and that I'm comfortable
with. He explained what changes had to be made on the g mail site and in my
Outlook menu, in order to do that. And he said that I'd probably need
someone to help me make those changes. So he was accepting my llimitations
and pointing out a way to get around them and reach the objective of using a
g mail account to get back on the list. That's what I'm trying to do.
And to clarify one more time, nothing that comes through the blind democracy
list is coming to me. The message that you sent today did not come to me. I
have it because when Carl responded to you, he copied his response to me.
The copy bypasses the list. It goes from him to me. That is something that I
understand about lists and that you, apparently don't. I explained it to you
in a previous private message, but you still don't get it. So perhaps you
can understand my situation a little bit. Not everyone understands
everything when it's explained.
You wrote a message about "tone" and you've talked about inuendo. Carl said
that your message to me was cold. He was talking about the tone of your
message. You have said that you don't get inuendo or tone. That appears to
be true. But you get that you don't get it. So when it comes up in a
discussion about what you've said to me or to someone else, why are you
angry or insulted? You already know that this may be a shortcoming of your's
just like I know that working with technology is a shortcoming of mine.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2016 4:16 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Miriam Vieni
Subjec t: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: G Mail
Well Roger, I was being flippant, and I shouldn't have been. So I apologize
for that.
I guess I get frustrated when personalities clash and I can't do anything to
make it all better. By nature I am a rescuer, and through childhood
experiences I am a worrier. But that's my problem to deal with. Since I
receive so much information on this list, that is hard to collect from other
sources, I worry that something will cause folks to leave the List and it
will wither and die.
But also, and more importantly, I have come to really like both you and
Miriam. I don't want to see either of you drop from this list.
Both of you post thought provoking articles, and you both make good
observations on what is going on in the world.
So again, I am sorry that I was somewhat thoughtless, and I hope the two of
you will continue to post.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/4/16, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, I don't know what you mean by cold, but can you even imagine howthings too.
frustrating it is to try one's best to offer help for a problem that
someone else is having and get some kind of smart-ass bashing like
that? I assure you that it is perplexing, frustrating and irritating.
It causes me to experience some amount of anger too. Really, if I am
wrong about my advice I am wrong. But where does this nonsense about
my calling people lazy fools or being condescending come from? There
is simply nothing like that in what I said.
On 6/4/2016 10:50 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Now that's cold, Roger...cold, I tell you.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/3/16, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, Miriam, I am not the most competent person with computers
myself, so when you do find competent help it will not be me.
Whoever it is, though, I hope you can take advice from that person
without claiming that he or she is lecturing you as if you are a
lazy fool. When you react to people who are trying to help you like
that then that kind of reaction can interfere with your learning new
to do that either.
On 6/3/2016 2:24 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger responded to me on list when I have said, over and over
again, that I'm not receiving anything from the list. What does
that tell you?
I have looked and looked at the G mail page. I even found all the
key strokes for screen readers. I even found the notification from
freelists that I'd asked to subscribe, and after incredible
difficulty, accessed the email and gone to the link to reply. So
it's not like I was just sitting back and whining and doing
nothing. However, although it may be difficult for Roger to accept,
we don't all function in the same manner or have the same skill
sets. Frank has told me that I can use G mail through my Outlook
email program, but it requires some actions to be completed. He
outlined them. I hope he included everything because my sighted
friend who is quite competent with a computer, might be able to do
it. However, most people, sighted or not, would not know what to
do. I'd prefer that someone with real competence and confidence, do
it remotely. Right now, I can't find anyone.
I
have no doubt, however, that Roger has the capability to learn how
to do these things for himself. I don't begrudge him that
capability. I just don't want to be lectured at and be made to
sound like a lazy fool because I can't.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 10:41 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Miriam Vieni
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: G Mail
I'm assuming that the message here was from Roger. Very logical.
And very direct. In my youth, had I encountered a teacher who
sounded like Roger, I would have shrunk back in my seat, red faced
with embarrassment.
But at my advanced age, and with years of working with a wide
variety of people, I have come to believe that all brains do not
track the same.
And
in this, they are neither superior nor inferior to one another.
Just different.
I have had the misfortune to have read, over and over, pages of
instructions, referred to me on-line. "Help" files usually mean,
"Trouble", for me. If I simply read these pages, I would come away
wondering how I'd ever reached my current age, and status. But
from experience, I know that I am teachable. I just need to have
hands on instruction.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/2/16, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I don't know which email program you are using, but just set it up
to receive messages from your Gmail address the same way you set
it up to receive the email from your other address and then use it
just like you have been using your email all along. It would be
good, though, to log into your account at mail.google.com and poke
around adjusting settings until you have it configured the way you
want it. I suppose you will be saying that you don't have a clue how
Here is the advice that I give everyone who is visiting a web siteto answer them.
that they are planning to make regular use of. Put your screen
reader on continuous read and read the entire home page from top
to bottom including any navigation headings and footers. While you
are doing that take note of any links labeled FAQ, about us or
other links that promise to give you information about the site.
Then click on each of those links and read the pages you are taken
to from top to bottom too. If there are instructions then follow
them. Once you do that and familiarize yourself with the web site
you will be in a much better position to ask intelligent questions
if you still do not understand something. There are so many people
who have not bothered to take these steps to familiarize
themselves with a web site they are going to use and then get on
email lists and ask questions so broad that even an expert on that
site will have a hard time knowing where to start
On 6/2/2016 6:52 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Have an account, but don't have a clue how to use it.
Miriam
