Mustafa, if you're listening,
You seem to think that Roger is anti-religion and hates faith. Actually his
belief system and the way he acts on it, is as much a religion as yours and
mine are. It demands a devotion to the elusive search for something called
"reality". Then there are the us's and the thems. The thems are stupid and
naive, forever deprived of the end of the journey, for the reality god. The
us's are pure and their life worth living. The us's
Devote their lives to proselytizing, for the thems must find their way to
Reality if their lives are to have any meaning. So, Mustafa, chill. It's just
another tribe, trying to make sense of it all, just like you and I are,
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey ;
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 12:46 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions about Religion
I think it was more like that she didn't want to hear it even once. And,
no, she didn't know what I thought about the subject. Like I said,
subsequent conversation showed that she didn't have the slightest idea
what I had said.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be
counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not
determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/15/2019 3:30 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
Sounds to me like that woman was communicating a message to you which was
something like, "I know what you think about this subject and I don't want to
hear it over and over again!"
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 2:47 PM
To: Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Mostafa Almahdy <mostafa.almahdy@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions about Religion
That reminds me of a certain woman I used to know. She was religious,
but I can't say that she beat me over the head with it. Well, maybe a
little bit, but at least she was capable of talking about other
subjects. However, conversations with her did tend to come around the
subject of religion far more often than it did with most people. I did
not hesitate to voice my criticisms of religion with her every time she
brought up the subject. I noticed that every time I did she started to
make some voice music, not very loud, but kind of a quiet wordless
singing. Then subsequent conversation made me realize that she had no
idea what I was saying when she did that. She was purposely making
herself not listen to me. She wasn't not just not listening. She was
making a conscious effort to not listen.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be
counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/15/2019 12:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Wasn't it Saint Benedict who decided that whenever he had an impure
thought, he would disrobe and throw himself in the brambles.
Eventually he said, "I can now think anything I choose to think".
This ability to close out all that is going on around us, and think
only of what we want to be true, may be Mankind's undoing.
On 3/14/19, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
I wonder how he got the idea that I finally admitted that I hate faith.
I thought I have been making that clear all along.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/14/2019 7:51 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Greetings Mostafa.
I am sorry that you are no longer receiving the posts on Blind
Democracy. There are many thoughtful people with deep concerns for
this nation and our World. I understand that you must believe what
you believe, in order to give meaning to your life and to the world
you live in. And likewise, I believe what I must believe in order to
make sense of my Planet Earth. Because we are mere mortals, flawed as
are most humans, our beliefs are very likely flawed. Nonetheless, in
all religions from the beginning of memory, there has been the need to
have one powerful Being sitting atop of the heap. And because the God
of the people over there looks different than the God of the people on
the other side, each side must defend their God. And they do so
without any thought that the other side is just as right and just as
wrong as they are. So rather than building a true Garden of Eden, we
are destroying all that has been here for thousands of years.
And all because each group is sold on their own God.
The true God dwells within each human being. I am God. You are God.
We each are responsible for what we do and how we live. And our first
command is to love one another. If we follow just that one
commandment, Love your neighbor as you would have him/her love
yourself, we would no longer feel the need to destroy all that is
around us.
Mostafa, when you reach the "golden years" of your life, you will know
whether your beliefs were right, or off target. If you are satisfied
and you have family and friends around you who love you dearly, then
you have been successful.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/14/19, Mostafa Almahdy <mostafa.almahdy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, it's Roger who included the list's e-mail address in the carbon
copy fieled. I naturally reply and accidentally, pressed reply to all
last time and never expected the list to be included. It's he who
inserted it. Nonetheless, he insistently contends to be ostentatious.
I thence have got to grapple with his petulant fencing. Nevertheless,
if the list's moderator tolerates this confrontation to be posted to
its members, then he is the one to scold. I unsubscribed and destined
to deal with him individually. I am no longer subscribed to the list
and thence, do not receive its daily digests. But, because he lives
alone, when he receives my responses, he ostensibly hits his head
against the wall, shouts madly and curses iniquitously on his own. He
felt the necessity to include others even virtually, so he won't feel
despised and deprived of fellowship or society. I am happy, however,
that the left alone atheistic dumbstricken and untutored blind senior
finally admitted his hate to faith. That's the spirit, but I should
have not pressured you to be outspoken. He called me a liar and a
hypocrite. Well, I won't lower myself again to such level and will
stick to solely worthful points. First off, I never said that
electricity is merely perceived visually. Here is what I said, quoted
word to word. If something isn't empirically proved, that shouldn't
signify it doesn't exist. So for instance, electrical energy is not
visually visible to us. However, it is perceived with other senses. If
the light is turned on, it has to be decisive sign for currently
incessant electrical transmittance. So, I plainly stated that
electrical energy is perceived with other senses but deceitful Roger
distorted my sentence on purpose. If someone dares to touch a bare
wire to perceive electrical energy, he is to either be electrically
shocked, rottenly torturing himself as they do in detention centres
or committing suicide in an awful manner. Second, I never said that
you became an Atheist because of scientific influence. Well again,
here is what I said, precisely quoted, word to word. The denial of God
is essentially based on obstinance and doctrinal abnegation. Science
doesn't negate nor affirm the existence of God. I presume that you and
other Atheists have deliberately perverted scientific development to
unethically conceal your hateful disposal of faith. Well, Roger
finally admitted that he hates faith. He now has unveiled his actual
motive for his dissonance with faith. It's nothing but plain
antipathy. I now shall proceed with my uncomplimentary animadversion
to Atheism. This path of faith denial is identical to polygenic
disease. It basically demolishes the essence of mental synthesis. For
Atheists, life is corporeal and absolutely superfluous. For them,
conscience is absent and thence, right and wrong, good and evil, all
of that is essentially entitled to the theory of relativism. It is the
philosophical doctrine that all criteria of judgment are relative to
the individuals and situations involved. Atheists exalt philistinism
and they couldn't construe beyond its trammeled scope. This is why the
concept of the divine for them is really odd to fathom. Science is
intemperately honoured in Islam. The Koran praises scholars in
general. It furthermore urges the utilisation of intellect to the
eminently sufficient paramount. It talks about and perhaps,
circuitously signals to scientific facts that have recently been
discovered such as the spherical earth, the expanding universe, the
black holes and so on. Atheists are agitated as they hear this. They
mostly are people who haven't received any theological vocation and
thence, their knowledge about the subject is of course somewhat
limited. When you are not so aware about something, attempt to
denigrate its status to evade scrutiny. This is their approach but
it's utterly futile. Atheists elude engaging in rational conversation.
Everything has got to be of mercenary nature for them. Therefore,
emotions are worthless for them. They may deceitfully dissemble to
care for human species but they're the last to do so. I resemble the
character of Henry Hudson in exposing the realness of those people.
The whole idea of Atheism is primarily based on nothing sacred and
life is material. I am entertaining myself with carrying on this
riveted critique of Atheism and its mentally detrimental precepts.
Roger is a senior blind American who has been mentally disoriented. He
is not adequate to speak about theology, science or philosophy. Unlike
him, I don't diminish the cruciality of empirical science the manner
he does to theological studies. This demonstrates the difference
between us and it also shows who is properly edified versus the one
who leastwise to be considered uneducated and mentally below average
and thence, demanded to be taken to proper psychological therapy. If
someone here in the list could help him with seeking one, that will be
good. People here must respect my identity and where I come from. The
American pride won't work with me. Even if you sit here all day
criticising the political practices of your nation, you are acting
exactly like your government when someone dissents with you. Theology
is a broadly prestigious specialty and I won't tolerate anyone
deriding my major. At least, act like Miriam, as she seems to be the
only sane one here, despite the fact she doesn't believe in any
religion nor even God which is absolutely fine for me. Lastly, my
press of reply to all is consciously purported this time.
On 3/14/19, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well Roger, I was afraid you were having too good a time. Actually I--
don't even know why I wrote what I did. Mostafa can decide what he
wants to say. But in a moment of annoyance,I felt moved to let him
know how his rants affect me.
I really don't want to sound as if I'm offering advice, since Mostafa
has made it quite clear that he has an agenda and will not be tricked
into discussing other topics. While I only express my own beliefs,
and try not to bully others, nonetheless, all the time and effort
Mostafa tells us he has invested in studying his religion, would, in
my opinion, be better spent studying most any social issue. It always
amazes me regarding the time Jeopardy spends on Mythology and the
Ancient Gods. But there are people who spend an entire career
amerced in such nonsense. But it's their lives. I spent ten years
exploring Christianity. I spent another ten years becoming a pretty
decent bowler, carrying a 196 average at my peak. I've spent the past
55 years laboring in the field of work with the blind. So, we each
follow our own interests. But you are correct in your use of the word
"bullying". I suspect that this is what caused me to call for an end
to the nonsense.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/13/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, I don't think you can count on his stopping. Mostafa is a
religious bully. He first came to my attention when he started
subscribing to email lists just so that he could collect email
addresses
and make a personal mailing list from which he would not remove anyone
even though they demanded to be removed. That is bullying. That is
religious harassment. Over time his bullying has taken on other
characteristics, but he is still a religious bully. Now that he has
been
bested in the application of logic to his rantings he turns his
bullying
into name calling, insults and other personal attacks. What he doesn't
understand is that I am actually enjoying that to some extent. He is
validating my position while at the same time he is sabotaging his own
credibility. I don't usually experience enjoyment when someone
sabotages
himself, but in this case he continues to validate my own position by
doing it. So how could I not enjoy that? I just picture him in my mind
with his face turning purple with rage that I have defeated him in a
contest of intellect and I laugh at that. I would not expect him to
join
the ranks of the reasonable and civil crowd though. But wouldn't it be
really great if he finally admitted that what he has been harassing
people with is indefensible and so give it up?
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/13/2019 11:10 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Please! Stop!
This sort of post is pure Childishness, and serves only to sooth the
ruffled feathers of he who wrote it.
When I was a child I was taken to the Woodshed and soundly spanked
for
not behaving. I decided to use "reason" with my children, believing
that spanking only proved that Might makes Right. My children,
traumatized by my lectures, decided to try "Time Outs" where their
children were sent to their rooms to "think" about their misdeeds.
But Please, whatever method works, Please let's agree to disagree,
and
go forward to discuss such things as respect, courteousness and
objectivity.
Carl Jarvis Happy to say that I'm still an Agnostic. And, if you
notice, when it comes to the aforementioned topic, I just don't care
anymore.
On 3/12/19, Mostafa Almahdy<mostafa.almahdy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger, you are basing your ratiocination on inconsequence. I urge
you
to study proper syllogism. If something isn't empirically proved,
that
shouldn't signify it doesn't exist. So for instance, electrical
energy
is not visually visible to us. However, it is perceived with other
senses. If the light is turned on, it has to be decisive sign for
currently incessant electrical transmittance. It flows through
cables and consequently, produces power. The denial of God is
essentially based on obstinance and doctrinal abnegation. Science
doesn't negate nor affirm the existence of God. But, studying
science
with intellectual independence and faith in action necessarily leads
to this conviction. Your attempts to evade are futile. The fact you
are petulant is immensely demonstrable. Your alleged claim of
holding
a Biology degree testifies to your stiff state of nescience and
repugnance. Frankly, you are detesting faith and that's why you are
exercising derision and bigotry toward its followers. Scientific
theories never call people to disbelieve. They are faith haters who
pervert them to venally reach up to that incorrect conclusion. It is
staggeringly inconsistent and concurrently duplicitous to attribute
science to Atheism. Atheism is a psychologically developed
delusional
state. It is essentially characterised with counterfeitly
exculpating
incredulity and exalting philistinism. It thence eludes engaging in
rational scrutiny. In order for the deceitful portrayal to be amply
consummated, theology ought to be disparaged and violence has to be
falsely imputed to religion. This approach is plainly hostile and
anti
religion anyway. I'd respect someone if he's to be rather
transparent.
Don't claim it is science that has caused you to disbelieve. Be
truthful and say, well, I just hate religion and actually, couldn't
cope with its tenets, such as, the do's and don't's. You'd be more
respected that way. The prob, nonetheless, that faith is
misportrayed
by them as a motive to get into a disgraceful state of civil
retardation. This is wholly declined. Roger funnily couldn't until
now, cite at least one reliable or even unreliable reference
concerning his alleged claims about the Koran and its authorship. He
furthermore accuses me of hypocrisy because I ask him for his never
rleased Biology degree and to cite any reference regarding his
claims
about the Koran. Well, he couldn't do neither. Moreover, he seems to
have even misconstrued the term hypocrisy. The latter is generically
defined As counterfeit expression of concurrence that is not
endorsed
by inward conviction. I am satisfied though that Roger finally
admitted that the existence of God is rationally potential. Well,
that's good and leastwise, a step forward even if it's minor one.
I'll
continue to amend Roger's fallacious propositions until he
ultimately
recognises and gives in to the vitally incontrovertible truth. It is
rendered as namely. Life has a purpose and people are going to
depart
this world to an eternal one. Lastly, Atheism is used by many in the
Arab world as a manner to bootlick westerns, so they may obtain a
visa
or be granted asylum. This act is indeed to be considerably
oleaginous
and disingenuous. This is what I call, the sale of the worthful for
the worthless. People abandon Islam to immigrate to western
countries
because they are culturally manipulated. As for someone like me who
is
intellectually independent, I don't need to defer to civil
defeatism.
I learned this foreign language to be broadly communicative, not to
be
ridden, owned and controlled by someone else.
On 3/12/19, Roger Loran Bailey<rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
By the way, every time I type the name Mostafa my spell checker--
urges
me
to change it to Hemostat.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with.
It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It
may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/11/2019 4:20 PM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
Hey petulant senior, I decided not to pollute my ears with your
wretched terms. You're maliciously mischievous and your Atheistic
disposal are emphatically the clearest sign for your miserable
loss.
You must fathom that I don't care about your opinion of me. I
don't
believe in an invisible man in the sky. I don't personify the
divine.
This is what Christendom does. This is a vivid proof that reflects
your Christian scope of presuming the divine, despite your
disaffirmation or unprovably arrogating otherwise. I rather
believe
in a unique Supreme Being. Allah glory be to Him has ultimate
omnipotence to providentially sustain and maintain creation. He
doesn't beget, nor He is begotten and no one is comparable to Him.
This is my belief in brief. Your refuge with incorrectly
considering
my argument to be of circular reasoning is just a foiled attempt
to
evade. Your inactive conscience is the primal factor of this
incessantly delusional state. Nonbelievers have gone so broadly
conjecturing the commence of the universe. Nonetheless, they are
inwardly aware of the divine existence. They just prefer to
interpret
all models of taxonomic variance in merely empirical manner. Even
prominent English theoretical physicist who devoted himself to
fend
for Atheism and died recently, Stephen Hawking, circumstantially
confessed on a televised interview, that God may exist. But
science
can explain everything without the need for a Creator, he added.
So
plainly, science isn't a major barrier
to faith and vice versa. It has rather been flexed by some
to
make
it falsely incompatible with spiritual engagements. Science
doesn't
negate the possibility of God. However, looking at the perfectly
structured and integrated universe has to logically lead to this
conclusion. Islam enjoins its followers to read and ponder onto
the
signs of the heaven and within the broader figure of the farther
cosmos. Thence, I don't have any motive to even think of
potentially
abandoning faith. My religion doesn't prohibit the looking into
the
universe and the study of chiefly temporal pertained scientific
disciplines. Unlike the Church which wholly precluded all sorts of
scientific development in medieval era, Islam bases its major
tenets
onto the divine injunction that says, read in the name of thy
Lord.
In
many verses, the Koran praises science and those who belong to it.
You
have sarcastically invited me to dispose faith and embrace your
path.
I am seriously wondering, what for? Theology made me confident and
your lack of made you arrogant, ignorant and malcontented to say
the
least. You now have to reconsider your unjustifiedly obstinate
temperament. Your objection to faith is of essentially
psychological
trait. Otherwise, you would have leastwise looked at the Koran or
cited any relieble or unreliable reference for your oddly
unexplainable dissent to the Koran regarding science in its
various
topics. Lastly, you're struck with immense sorrow, perhaps because
of
your desolation, pathetic life or both and quite possibly, even
more.
I therefore strongly urge you to seek consulting a certified
psychotherapist. I detest to be inimical with some senior like
you.
Your situation evokes pettiness. If you need help concerning your
psychologically awful status, I could refer you to someone who is
competent of aiding you properly. I absolutely view Atheism
because
of
mainly psychological traumas.
On 3/9/19, Roger Loran Bailey<rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, here we have more childish name calling and insults. Okay,
I
will
try again. I respectfully and civilly ask you to provide your
refutation
for my explanation of how your major argument for an invisible
man
with
magic powers who lives in the sky is circular reasoning and is
thereby
a
logical fallacy. If you cannot do that, which I very strongly
suspect,
then I respectfully ask you to revise your argument. If you
cannot
do
that either, which I also strongly suspect, then I respectfully
ask
you
to admit that you have been wrong and to come over to the world
of
reason. What I fully expect, though, is that you will spew more
invective and insults. That, again, is just adding the ad homenem
logical fallacy to the circular reasoning logical fallacy. But I
keep
giving you the chance to make yourself look better. Every time,
though,
you throw another tantrum and make yourself look even more
ridiculous
than you already have.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple
with.
It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It
may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/9/2019 1:14 PM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
To the Virginian archfiend, wrath and curse upon thee. I warned
you
several times earlier, not to cross your boundries. I'm
exceedingly
comported with civil people and immensely strident with rude,
yokelish and pretentious ones. You haven't exhibited any sense
of
logic with the radically imbecilic gibberish you ludicrously
uttered.
It's you who's peculiarly pestilent, petulant, stupefied,
garbled,
tomfool, daft, awless, cozened, anathemised, scurvy,
disheartened,
infidel, nescient, noncivilised, tameable, vicious, crocked,
crooked,
swinish, opprobrious and emphatically dismantled. You're
mentally
mishandled and I'm going to show you how to talk. What is an
incapacitated idiotic senior like you going to do? Even if I
lived
nearby your damnable residence which I fortuitously don't, I
would
have never thought of unwisely vitiating my cleansed spirit with
your
intemperately contaminated figure. Your mind is miserably
dazzled.
It's sufficient for me that you perhaps be shot at your piggy
head
with a demented sniper in your gravely smutty neighborhood and
that's
not improbable to occur in America. I'm here to just destroy you
mentally. I think I'm doing well. You are poorly deluded with
being
counterfeitly prosperous. You knew this is demonstratively
fallacious.
I'm enormously halcyon with my faith and you're implausibly
deplorable
with your lack of. What has your irreligion brought to you so
far
but
curse and blasphemy? You live insane and shall die in vain. What
has
your nonsensical logic of seeing everything merely material has
presented to you? You've foolishly chased illusion to bogusly
perceive
superior and has commonly, miserably failed to attain. As I
expected,
you won't ever release your alleged Biology certificate because
it
doesn't exist and you won't cite one reliable or even unreliable
reference regarding what you claimed about the Koran and its
authorship because you are fibber and chiseler. If you don't
like
theology, that doesn't exempt you from being respectful and
reliable
which you aren't. You need to be properly disciplined. I'm a
teacher
and it's part of my job to thoroughly discipline misbehaving
children.
If you were at my presence, I would have laid you carefully
confined
on a submission table, took off your shoes and socks and toughly
caned
you barefooted until you cryout, mercy, mercy, in agony and
regret.
This is the manner by which they used to discipline obstinate
children
here in Egypt's rural regions. It's called corporal punishment.
It
works well in disciplining misdemeaning children and you're
among
them. Sometimes, aged individuals act like kids and thence, they
have
got to be treated accordingly. After this disciplinal act,
you
should have known how to behave. Dissing someone disgraceful
like
you
is something its doers shouldn't be scolded. Go to hell mr
smart,
curse and wrath upon thee.
On 3/9/19, Roger Loran Bailey<rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Now we have a threat of unspecified violence, unspecified but
still
violence. Mostafa, do you have any idea of how much misery you
will
cause for yourself if you actually try to carry this out? Is
this
really your idea of being civil? I can only say that I have
tried
my
best to be civil to you, but as soon as I give you a logical
argument
that you cannot refute you throw childish fits along with
insults
and
threats. And then you say that it is I who knows nothing of
logic.
Is
this a case of that psychological term called projection? Come
on,
Mostafa, you have taken it onto yourself to harass everyone you
can
over
the Internet with religion. Can't you take the inevitable fight
back?
Are you really so cowardly that you will run away making
threats?
Why
can't you defend that which you do your best to force onto
others?
Give
it some thought. If you can't defend it then just maybe it is
indefensible and just maybe you should give it up. You do
yourself
no
service by continually making a complete fool of yourself and
alienating
people. And by the way, if anything happens to me there is now
a
record
of your threatening me.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple
with.
It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices.
It
may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/8/2019 8:21 AM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
Mariam, as long as you don't have precise stats, you are not
suppose
to arbitrarily refer to them. Roger, you're not more than an
absurdly
senior, eyeless Virginian imbecile. Someone used my e-mail
address
to
unsubscribe me from the list and I felicitously have done so.
I've
left the list permenently. Roger, you have proved to me,
yourself
and
others that you are completely unaware of logic, science,
philosophy,
religion and even courtesy for that matter. Theology isn't
infertile
and reality lies beyond mere philistinism. There is Allah,
there
is
heaven, there are daemons, you're among them, there is hell
and
that's
where you're damnably destined to dwell infinitely. You are
enwrapped
in empirical presumptions and you are not able to see beyond
them.
It
isn't my prob that you are spiritually piteous. You're brought
to
dispute for nothing but to be flamboyant. My retaliation from
you
should extend beyond scandalising your woeful nescience and
insolence.
It proceeds to broadly exemplify your fallibility and absolute
lack
of
credibility. Just watch out for my immense strike that is yet
to
come.
I am going to make you gravely suffer in this life and you
shall
indeed be subjected to tremendously awful doom in the
hereafter.
On 3/8/19, Roger Loran Bailey<rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Of course the discussions of religion here leads to something
positive.
It exposes religion for the complete bat shit wackiness that
it
is.
And,
Mostafa, you help. You have yet to address my explanation of
how
your
major argument for religion was circular reasoning. When
instead
of
refuting my point you start the personal attacks like you
continue
in
this very message you validate my position. You won't flat
out
admit
that you cannot refute me, but by engaging in ad homenem
attacks
you
make it clear that you have no refutation. Really, wouldn't
you
try
to
refute me if you had a refutation? Face up to it, Mostafa, we
live
in
a
real world. Whether we like it or not we are embedded in
reality.
There
are no gods. There are no allahs. There are no devils or
demons.
There
is no heaven. There is no hell. There is only reality and
reality
is
enough. There is a lot more to learn about reality than we
have
ever
learned about it before. Learning about reality is something
that
can
be
a lifetime pursuit. Studying theology can be a lifetime
pursuit
too,
but
it is a sterile one. It is just one made up story after
another.
Theology is a terrible way to waste a life.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple
with.
It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held
prejudices.
It
may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/7/2019 9:09 PM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
I am now totally convinced that discussion about religion
here
won't
lead to anything positive. This is another good reason that
Miriam
previously mentioned and thence, inspired it into my head.
I
initially quitted bringing the subject back because it isn't
respected
and often unhallowed by certain irreligious individuals.
Whenever
it's
brought up, people are stirred to expose their conniptions.
Roger
in
particular, has designated incredible ignominy, nescience
and
discourtesy to anything that is labeled with faith or
religious
belief. This is truly unfair. It just demonstrates how
cretin
Roger
is. He showed us throughout the course of my conversation
with
him,
how dipstick and wanker he miserably turned out to be. I am
flabbergasted at this senior and his incredible ability to
be
onomatopoetically pretentious. Roger is simply a hapless,
tedious
old
racist. Roger doesn't fathom that faith and science
harmoniously
parallelise because he despises religion beforehand. He
proved
his
detest to faith pertained matters as he insistently derided
the
miraculously prophetic nocturnal journey to the celestial
realm.
He
may have sought refuge with this tactic to purposely
marginalise
my
status. He attempted to do so but he fortunately couldn't. I
am
wholeheartedly stiff in my belief and won't ever defer to
Roger's
predominantly repulsive tendency. I determined to amply
retaliate
and
strike this daft senior with what he justly merits. I'm not
incensed
because of his Atheistic perspective. I am rather indignant
at
his
wildly half-witted disposal and his repeatedly failed
attempts
to
pretend otherwise. He is mentally indisposed and
unjustifiedly
imperious to proper knowledge. He has at least committed
five
major
offences during this tremendously preposterous
confabulation.
First
off, he doltishly admitted, that apart from certain
Christian
preachings and the unknowledgeable sermoniser who
interpreted
his
blindness as some form of God's wrath at his sinful state,
he
never
experienced any spiritual involvement. If we skeptically
entrusted
Roger's account on that regard, Christian preachers in the
States
are generically unreliable and incomparably, considered the
farthest
from prestigious theological vocation. Thence, their
wordages
are
formally declined. Second, he admitted that he kept a taped
copy
of
the Koran but he never attempted to play it and carelessly
returned
it
to the library of his local residence. This demonstrates his
prejudiced and cavalier inclination. Third, he on several
occasions,
claimed to have a Biology degree but failed to release this
alleged
certificate. Fourth, he claimed that the Koran is inaccurate
about
black holes, giving no evidence for that. He seemed to be
indecisive
but rather despicable. When I sent him a video to counter
his
view
on
this, he didn't even click on its link and came up with
obviously
preconceived notion about its content. Fifth and ultimately,
he
allegedly claimed that the Koran was authored by prophet
Muhammad
but
never cited either one reliable or unreliable reference to
verify
his
proposition. What is this to be called rather than plainly
disheartened and piteous individual? Miriam, Carl and others
are
irreligious but not brattish as Roger really is. I utterly
discern
the
situation concerning religion in the west. It isn't as
crucial
therein
as it is here in the Middle East. It portrays a substantial
portion
of
our culture, heritage and identity. Therefore, the two are
inseparable. The west has to respectfully accommodate this
condition
and deal with us accordingly. I knew what religion is in the
west,
I
respect that in spite of my own convictions. For instance,
it
doesn't
organise social life for many, except for inconsiderable
group
of
traditional Christians. This is called conservatism in
western
cultural terminology. Basically, conservatism in western
culture
is
properly defined as a theological orientation that advocates
the
preservation of the best in society and immensely opposes
secular
views. Six years ago, I received a guest from Britain. He
used
to
be
my English teacher at the British Council. I didn't know
anything
about his personal belief until we met here in Cairo's
international
airport. We chatted at his arrival and he incidentally
disclosed
his
irreligious identity to me. He told me so in quite a jesting
manner.
I
slightly smiled, and had no problem with that what so ever
and
invited
him at my home for dinner next day. It was Ramadan and the
peak
of
Summer at that time. The man came to my house approximately
fifteen
minutes before dusk. Although the temperature was so hot, he
politely
refused to take even one sip of water. Despite my insistence
on
him
to
leastwise drink some water, he thanked me and said he would
wait
until
people break their fast, saying, it's soon anyway. He has
done
so
out
of respect to the general atmosphere. People loved him, we
prayed
in
front of him, he never commented and happily ate with us. He
so
much
loved Egyptian desserts and the dates I typically bring from
Medina,
called them so delicious. Medina is the city that sites
prophet
Muhammad's tomb, located in western region of modern Saudi
Arabia.
I
didn't have another chance to see him again during his brief
visit
because in Ramadan, I am usually occupied with charitable
affairs
during daylight hours post to work and at night, we are
praying.
On
his departure's date eve, he called and unfeignedly thanked
me
for
the
nice dinner and the truly beautiful experience. I warmly
paid
him
a
heart-whole farewell on the phone and apologised for not
being
able
to
come to the airport to see him off. This is a decent model
for
someone
who doesn't believe in religion but still, so respectful. In
order
to
be respected, you have got to respect others, someone said.
Moreover,
this personal experience clearly demonstrates the plain
difference
between the competently educated and otherwise. The man
obviously
drinks but he never asked for this. He honoured our
sobriety,
yet
he
knew it is motivated with religious tenets. This also
demonstrates
the
level of this man's education and more importantly, his
civility.
I'm
done.
On 3/7/19, Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Some folks learn through other folks experiences. I happen
to
be
in
that other group, the hands on guys. Well okay, maybe not
when
it
comes to certain things, like robbing a bank or crawling
down
a
long
tunnel, but in my experience it is better understood if I
am
totally
submerged.
Hmm...this is getting me trapped, so I'm going to back out
and
go
sweep the kitchen and shake out the throw rugs, and even
run
the
vacuum.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/6/19, Roger Loran Bailey<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Well, I never had a dramatic journey from belief to
nonbelief
either.
I
didn't even have an undramatic journey from belief to
nonbelief.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to
grapple
with.
It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held
prejudices.
It
may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But
our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/6/2019 1:19 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Carl,
So, what prompted me to say what I did was that you do,
periodically,
make
pronouncements about the foolishness of belief in a
personal
deity.
And
sometimes, you make those comments in response to Mustafa
who,
clearly,
has a different view on the matter from your's. I never
had
a
religious
education. My parents were nominally Jewish, which meant
that
they
celebrated "the high holidays", and sort of celebrated
Passover,
but
not
according to the whole tradition. So I never had a
dramatic
journey
from
belief to non belief. Perhaps that is why I don't feel
the
need
to
counter
arguments for the existence of God with arguments in
opposition
to
the
existence of God. I did, as I've mentioned before, go
through
a
thought
process, probably when I was in college, when I
formalized
my
own
position
on religion. However, given my social work education
which
involved
courses on human behavior, I've never considered religion
to
be
the
major
cause of human dysfunction, just as I've never considered
our
economic
system to be the basic cause of human dysfunction.
Rather,
I
see
both
as
expressions of how people function. But it does seem to
me
that
institutions, once they have been formed, have a life of
their
own.
A
government is not the same as the individuals who are
part
of
it.
Take
Obama out of the Presidency, and he won't be planning the
assassination
of
people every week.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl
Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 11:22 AM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions about Religion
Miriam wrote in part:
..."Carl may never stop wanting to make amends for having
been
an
Evangelical Christian in the past."
Sometimes, Miriam, I think that you have a Devilish sense
of
humor.
When I was young, I proudly exclaimed to one and all that
I
never
spent
time or energy regretting my past activities...or lack
thereof.
But I really do have some regrets. And I would undo some
hurts
that
my
behavior caused others. And I would go back, if I could,
and
do
some
of
the things for which I did not have the courage to do.
But
my
many
religious experiences, like my many political
experiences,
and
my
many
love affairs(many of them imagined), all contributed to
who
I
am
today.
My past is just that, My Past! And I make no judgements
on
what
or
how I behaved or thought. But there are things in my
past
that
I
do
not talk about, but which are just as much a part of who
I
am
today,
but
of which I would strike from my Life's Experiences. I
still
fight
my
own
Goblins and Bogymen, and would hang my head in shame if
they
were
exposed.
And yet, as I say, they are also part of 83 plus
years
of
living
and
experiencing that has given me a grand trip through life.
It's true that I become a bit rabid at times when on the
subject
of
religion. But religion is just one thread woven into our
human
fabric.
But it is a thread that has strong influences on the
entire
fabric
of
Life. After my days as a small child in Sunday School,
learning
about
Jesus, Santa Claus, the 3 Wise Men and a special woman
who
had
God's
baby,
and the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny, I left any
doings
with
religion
until I married my first wife. I was 25, and she was 22.
She
was
a
Christian, and insisted that I should attend church
services
every
Sunday,
morning and evening, and midweek Bible study.
I took this on in the same way I've taken on every new
facet
of
my
life.
I began to explore and to question. At some point I
became
certain
that
most people in our congregation were only paying lip
service,
and
were
not
true Believers. So I decided to find out what Belief was
all
about.
I
was baptized, and gave myself over to Jesus Christ. I
accepted
the
existence of God, and the Holy Spirit. I attended a
"full
gospel"
group,
and spoke in tongues and had visions.
It was an interesting time, with some unexplained
happenings.
But
I
never
found God. I did find many honest Believers who said
they
had
met
God,
but I also met many phonies and Users. After nearly ten
years,
I
came
to
understand that God was a feeling. Those who gave
themselves
over
to
that
Feeling never questioned it, and believed it would carry
them
to
a
higher
place after their life on Earth. While I totally respect
those
people
who
are "True Believers", I could not resolve the many
contradictions,
let
alone the many versions that caused more strife in the
world
than
it
resolved. As I questioned others, the answer was the
same,
although
expressed in many different ways. I must "trust". I was
told
that
God
moves in mysterious ways...I won't go into all the events
that
led
up
to
my leaving the Christian Faith, but suffice it to say
that
I
knew
that
I
had to be true to myself. I could not simply trust. And
to
try
to
sneak
along on someone else's trust, well that would never
work.
But the entire experience was valuable. My wife and I
separated,
not
over
religion, butt because she could not adjust to living
with
a
blind
man.
While I was in Rehab, learning to go forward with my
life,
she
was
alone,
seeing her dreams shattered, and no one was there to lead
her
through
to
the other side. We did marriage counseling through a
Christian
Counselor.
Finally I moved out. Those were hard times,
leaving
my
daughter
behind.
But my wife and I did come to resolve our personal hurt,
and
stayed
friends until her death many years later. Christianity
worked
for
my
first wife. As she aged she developed Diabetes, cancer,
and
congestive
heart failure, but her Faith never wavered.
How you, Miriam, or Roger or Mostafa deal with your Faith
has
to
be
an
individual, very personal matter. And frankly, how I
feel
about
it
should
not matter to anyone else. But it is this willingness to
trust
in
some
unknown Power, without question, that concerns me. Until
we
can
openly
discuss and question why we behave the way we do, and how
our
beliefs
effect Life on Earth, we will continue to make the same
foolish
mistakes
over and over until we are no more.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/5/19, Miriam
Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I would like to make a neutral observation. The
discussions
regarding
religion that have taken place among Roger, Carl, and
Mustafa,
do
not
lead to mutual understanding or resolution of issues.
Rather,
they
appear to be experienced by Mustafa as attacks upon a
central
tenet
of
his life, an important part of his identity, and thus,
he
attacks
back. While Roger sees these discussions as rational
debate,
and
Carl
sees them as open discussion of personal views, Mustafa
does
not.
Mustafa is not going to stop believing in his faith.
Roger
is
not
going to stop wanting to prove over and over again that
he
is
the
more
rational of the two and that his position is correct.
Carl
may
never
stop wanting to make amends for having been an
Evangelical
Christian
in
the past.
Miriam
(Seeking knowledge is compulsory from cratle to grave because it is
a
shoreless ocean.)
(Seeking knowledge is compulsory from cratle to grave because it is a
shoreless ocean.)
