[blind-democracy] Re: Demon Possessed: when is an atheist an agnostic: answer: when he says he is.

  • From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:12:24 -0400

Carl,

You may continue to stubbornly assert
I remain an avowed Agnostic.
No apologies.
And I continue to dig in and stubbornly assert that God is Man Made.

However, Your two statements above are contradictory. You cannot be an
agnostic and, at the same time, continue to assert that you definitely do
not believe in the existence of God. To be an agnostic, you must believe in
the possibility of the existence of God.
Definitions from Google
1.



a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence
or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who
claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
(in a nonreligious context) having a doubtful or noncommittal attitude
toward something.

You claim disbelief in God. You are not noncommittal.

Miriam

-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:20 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: my blog carl jarvis; Virginia Jarvis
Subject: [blind-democracy] Demon Possessed: when is an atheist an agnostic:
answer: when he says he is.

All, Atheists, Agnostic and Others.
Very interesting thoughts regarding God, or the lack of God, what
constitutes an Agnostic or an Atheist, and who gets to be the Holy One who
slaps on the Labels.
Well, since it doesn't make a whit of difference in how I see the world, the
one here or the one beyond, I remain an avowed Agnostic.
No apologies.
And I continue to dig in and stubbornly assert that God is Man Made.
Although in past times a few Gods were Woman Made. And we have made a bunch
of Saints, both male and female, as well as our Virgin Mary, who happens to
be the Mother of God, hence at least sitting on her own throne. But to the
question of how we really got here, there is no answer yet uncovered. For
us humans, it would be a worse problem than a fly trying to figure out how
that pile of cow dung got there in the pasture.
So the larger question cannot be answered. And the lessor question, Is
there a God as described in any of our Holy Books, the answer is, yes.
These gods do really exist, in the books and in the minds of believers. But
like Alice in Wonderland, they are merely within the covers of books and
beneath the hair of Believers.
And that is the personal opinion of this Agnostic!

Carl Jarvis
And by the way, my middle initial, "A", stands for Agnostic.
Carl A. Jarvis
On 7/19/15, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Oh, I don't know...I've also known many atheists and agnostics, and
I've also run into my fair share of, well, if not bible thumpers,
because that really is a pejorative term, then at least profoundly
religious, devout people, and I think both have their fair share of
obnoxious.as I said, no one group has that market cornered IMO.
On Jul 19, 2015, at 8:20 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

But, as one who has known many atheists, I can assure you that the
percentage of atheists who are obnoxious atheists is miniscule
compared to the percentage of bible thumpers who are obnoxious. In
fact, on the bible thumper side it is about one hundred percent.

On 7/19/2015 5:49 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
I think you sum it up well: is there a God, I don't know and neither
do you equals agnostic. Is there a God, no there is not equals
atheist. I wouldn't call it so much labels as how one identifies
one's self. And you are also right that obnoxious exists across the
gamut.there are obnoxious atheists just as there are obnoxious Bible
thumpers and everywhere in between. No belief system has the obnoxious
market cornered, haha.
On Jul 19, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

But that is what atheists believe, that it is unknowable. I'm not
talking about the dogmatic atheists who write about their views
just as obnoxiously as the Evangelical Christians. But I've read
about who Atheists are and what they believe. Before I read this
stuff, that's what I thought too. But Atheists run the gamit.
Labels, I suppose, can be deceiving and confusing.
But if someone asks me if I believe in God and my answer is that I
don't know, then I'm an agnostic. If my answer is no, then I'm an
atheist. If they then say, how can you say no? What is the origin
of the world? What makes the sun shine and the birds sing? My
answer is, I don't know. They then say, well, obviously it's God
who does that. My answer is, I don't know what you mean by God.
Saying that God does that is precisely the same to me as saying, I
don't know the cause. But if I'm afraid of how people may react to
that, I'll just go along to get along and say, OK, you're right.
there must be a God whose doing all this.

Miriam

________________________________

From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice
Dampman Humel
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 4:43 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Demon Possessed?


Again, I think for many agnostics at least, it's not even so much
uncertainty about the existence or lack thereof of a God, but
rather that it is unknowable. To me, at least, there is a slight
but significant distinction there.

On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


But atheists say that they do not believe in a traditional God
and they do not have the answers to how or why the world is as it
is. Agnostics say that they do not know whether or not there is a
God. Carl always, in all of his posts, makes clear that he thinks
that God is non existent, just a concept created by humans. So he
is not, by definition, an agnostic.
Agnostics are
not sure whether or not God exists. And Carl just said, in his
response to me, that he calls himself an agnostic to avoid
confrontations with people.

Miriam

________________________________

From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice
Dampman
Humel
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 2:46 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Demon Possessed?


Cowardly? Do you consider calling yourself an atheist an act of
bravery or
courage? Why?
And if Carl or someone else wants to call himself an agnostic, who
has the
right to make him call himself something else?
Maybe calling one's self an agnostic is an act of courage, because
one
admits that he, in fact, no one, really knows one way or the other?
Saying
"I don't know" is difficult for some people.
And if all the different races, even blind people demand to be
called what
they want to be called at any given time, then why shouldn't
agnostics have
the same right?
You wouldn't try to make an African-American call himself a Negro
instead,
so IMO, the agnostic has the same right, particularly because
whether anyone
else likes it or not, there is a difference in the two concepts,
agnostic
and atheist.

On Jul 19, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


That is what I keep trying to tell Carl. An agnostic is just an
atheist who either hasn't figured it out yet or is too cowardly to
admit to
being an atheist. And that applied to me when I was calling myself
an
agnostic too. Remember that I told that story about how when I was
twelve
years old I was flat out asked if I was an atheist. Of course I was,
but
until then I had never thought of the word in connection with myself
and had
only heard it in contexts in which it represented an incredible
evil. I did
not start calling myself an atheist until I was eighteen and that
was when
someone challenged my label for myself by pointing out that I kept
making
atheist arguments while calling myself an agnostic.

On 7/19/2015 9:50 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:


Carl, You are an atheist, but too chicken too call yourself
one. All of us
who do not believe that the world is operated by a God to
whom we can pray
for special favors, all of us who say that we do not have
the answers to why
things are as they are, we are atheists. Agnostics are
people who are not
sure whether or not there is the kind of God that the
religions worship. My
husband would never take a stand on the question because, he
said, he wanted
to "hedge his bets". He didn't want to be kept out of
heaven just in case
there might be one.

Miriam

-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Carl Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 1:28 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Demon Possessed?

Ah, those Atheists. Without Demons would indicate
blamelessness.
Purity of heart. Strong and able to defend their Being from
the corruption
of Demons.
As an Agnostic, I just can't say if I'm possessed or not.
Years ago I was at a gathering with my dad. A fellow came
up to him and
they began talking. At some point the fellow asked dad if
he knew the phone
number for a mutual friend. Dad pulled out his little
spiral notebook that
he carried in his shirt pocket at all times. He patted the
book as he drew
it out. "My brain," he told the man.
And so it is, in my humble opinion, with those who carry
their Bible
everywhere they go. That book is their brain. If it isn't
in that book, or
if they can't figure out how to "interpret" its words in a
way to prove
their point, then it simply does not exist. You see, Roger,
the Bible
thumpers will miss the point because they have already
concluded that
Atheists themselves, are the Demons and Devils.

Carl Jarvis



On 7/18/15, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


I just ran across this comment on Facebook. The
bible thumpers will
without doubt miss the implications. The comment is,
"Have you ever
noticed that if there is one group of people who are
never possessed
by demons it is atheists?"





















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