Miriam wrote: "there is no rule that says that I must use those names.
Those names are not relevant to America in 2019, not as far as I'm
concerned."
As far as you are concerned perhaps not, but you don't seem to be
concerned with class beyond subjective feelings. If you are concerned
with the class struggle then these classes are highly relevant in 2019
because the classes do continue to interact with one another in a
continuous class struggle. I have noticed that you seem to ignore news
articles dealing with strikes or labor organizing too and that shows
what you are not concerned with. But whether you are personally
concerned with it or not the class struggle continues. Politics does not
consist solely of some bourgeois politicians bickering with other
bourgeois politicians. There are real people out there who have to deal
with their economic realities.
---
Carl Sagan
“ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 6/21/2019 5:27 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
You say that if we talk about economic classes, we must name them and then you
give them
names like national bourgeoisie, bourgeoisie, petty bourgeoisie, proletariat,
lumpen proletariat labor aristocra peasantry, proletarianized peasantry and so
forth. These are simply names that describe classes in a capitalist economic
system
Those are names that Marx gave them back in what year? In what country?
Even if I chose to think about contemporary issues only in terms of economic
class, as if no other variables influenced what is happening in today's world,
there is no rule that says that I must use those names. Those names are not
relevant to America in 2019, not as far as I'm concerned. And I haven't heard
any current Marxist economists use them either. Not that they may not have used
them as they were learning Marxist theory, but if they want to communicate with
their fellow Americans, they need to use language and concepts that feel
relevant to people's everyday lives.
You write about how class can be used to understand people's economic
situation. You said,
The categories of what is commonly called class is there to let us know what
economic role people play in economic relations and how they relate to each
other on an economic basis. Ethnicity, religion or even the specific job one
performs are mostly irrelevant to this.
I cannot imagine how it is relevant to talk about people's financial situations, about
who has more privileges or more power, about who ends up homeless or incarcerated,
without taking ethnicity, race, religion, and personal psychology into account. I suspect
that what you are referring to, is a very mechanistic formula of economic theory like,
"dialectic materialism" or some other economic theory, the reverse side of
market theory, which doesn't take real people and their thoughts, feelings, or
motivations into account.
In fact, one of the criticisms made of Bernie Sanders by some of his detractors
on the left, is that he doesn't talk enough about how race impacts people's
economic situation. I don't agree with that particular criticism of him, but I
do think that one can't look at class status in the United States without
analyzing the impact of race, religion, and ethnicity on just who is a member
of which economic class.
We also have, in this country wide differences in philosophical viewpoints
regarding religion, sexuality, and civil liberties and this divergence of
viewpoint exists among the very wealthy. So although in some ways George Soros
and the Koch brothers have similar self interests, in other ways, they use
their money in very different ways when it comes to influenceing events.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 3:24 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: Clueless and Shameless: Joe Biden,
Staggering Frontrunner
Okay, you are getting into some of those quibbles that I alluded to that I have
with what Carl had to say, but your quibbles come from an entirely different
perspective. I will have to agree that it is over simplistic to divide everyone
into two classes, the ruling class and the working class. However, this talk
about different ethnicities, religions and things like that does not even
address the whole point of dividing people into classes at all. In some
contexts the word class means category and that is what you seem to be talking
about. You can divide people according to their ethnicity. You can divide
people according to whatever shade their skins are. You can divide people
according to whether they prefer to play chess or checkers. But if you divide
people by any of those criteria or any of the vast number of criteria available
for you to divide them by you have to ask the question of why are you dividing
them. Any such division you come up with may very well have some usefulness in
some study or endeavor like psychology, sociology marketing studies or
whatever, but you are still talking about categories as opposed to class. Okay,
dividing people into classes is categorical too, but the purpose of doing so
will not be the same as dividing people into the categories of people who stand
under five feet and people who stand over five feet. The categories of what is
commonly called class is there to let us know what economic role people play in
economic relations and how they relate to each other on an economic basis.
Ethnicity, religion or even the specific job one performs are mostly irrelevant
to this. As I have said before, you can be either a lumper or a splitter and
varying degrees of lumping or splitting may be more or less appropriate for
whatever you are doing with your categories. You could pick out at random any
two people from the human population of the earth and compare them and find
that one or the other has some advantage over the other with some amount of
greater power or privilege, but to what purpose would you be making that
comparison? The only thing I can think of is that you might be studying
individual psychology, but that doesn't have much to do with what is ordinarily
meant when the word class is used. This comparison of just one person to
another, though, is an extreme example of splitting. What Carl has explicated,
though, is an extreme example of lumping. Okay, there is the ruling class. They
are called the ruling class because they rule. They control how the economic
system is conducted and they have life and death power over a lot of people.
However, there are other people who have a lot of power too who are not quite
as powerful as the ruling class. Their own lives may be subordinate to the
ruling class, but they still have a high degree of privilege and they maintain
that privilege by implementing ruling class directives and by making their own
directives when not directly implementing ruling class directives. You have
powerful people who own the biggest manufacturing companies and who control
those companies. You have other powerful people who manage the transfer of
money who are the bankers. Below those kinds of people you have managers of
various levels and owners of smaller companies. You have company owners who not
only own and so implement their own power, but who also perform productive
labor themselves. Then you also have people who make their living only from
productive labor. Other people perform agricultural labor for a wage or perform
agricultural labor while owning the farm where they work. Then you have a
reserve of unemployed people who are maintained to keep the price of labor from
being bid up so high that the owners would fail to make a profit after paying
wages. Among those unemployed are a layer who have to resort to criminal
activity to make a living and may become professional criminals. There are a
lot of other gradations too and it has very little to do with their ethnicity,
religion or other characteristics that you mention. But my point in mentioning
all of these layers in the economic system is to illustrate just how over
simplistic Carl's division is. There are a lot of classes other than the ruling
class and the working class and just how far you are going to split or lump
them depends on what you happen to be doing with the information. Now, let me
add what I have been avoiding so far. These various classes have names.
If you are going to talk about anything and have it make sense you have to give
it a name. Oh, I suppose you could describe it every time you mention it, but
that would be very unwieldy. I know, Miriam, that you don't like it when I put
a name to these classes, but they have to be named in order to make sense of
what is being talked about. When someone calls classes by their names it does
not mean that there is an attempt to make you think in a certain way. It does
not mean that you are being looked down on. It does not mean that anyone is
dismissing your own cultural perspective. It does not mean that you are being
personally attacked or however you see it. It only means that the person who
uses those names is calling something by its name. The names of those classes
include names like national bourgeoisie, bourgeoisie, petty bourgeoisie,
proletariat, lumpen proletariat labor aristocracy, peasantry, proletarianized
peasantry and so forth. These are simply names that describe classes in a
capitalist economic system and the names were never given to any of these
classes to offend you or anybody else. And if we only call the class divisions
ruling class and working class we just cannot talk about the ways these varying
classes effect and relate to each other.
---
Carl Sagan
“ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 6/21/2019 9:25 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
My feeling is that you can't just lump everyone together in, "the working
class". People have different levels of education, come from different ethnic and
racial and religious backgrounds, do very different kinds of work, have very different
kinds of life styles, and most importantly, have very different views of who they are and
what their place is in this world. You're talking about power and it's true that you
don't have any more power than the people with no education or who struggle to make a
living for their children. That is, you don't have any more power to influence whether or
not we have war or peace, or whether or not we get a single payer health system. But you
do have enough power so that you will be treated with more consideration by business
people, politicians, and police officers. To me, for people like us to say that there's
no difference between us and migrant workers or fast food workers or Walmart employees,
is to trivialize the kinds of problems that those working class people have. You're not
one of them. They know it and you know it.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:11 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Clueless and Shameless: Joe Biden,
Staggering Frontrunner
With all due respect, I continue to consider all of us who are not members in
good standing of the Ruling Class, to be members of the Working Class. Unless
we are homeless or chronically unemployed, which would put us in the Lower
Class.
Middle implies halfway between something and something else. In the economic structure
of the American Empire, there is no "Middle"
anything.
My wife and I earned, back in the early 1990's, a bit over $100,000
per year between us. So $100,000 would put us mid way between
$000,000 and $200,000. But in order to be midway between $000,000,000 and
$100,000,000, we would need to come in around $50,000,000.
Middle Class is just another make believe term that soothes the Soul, but means
absolutely nothing.
But hey! All of the rest of you can call it anything you want, because the
fact of the matter is that all of us who are not members in good standing in
the Ruling Class are owned by one or more members of that Ruling Class.
Remember, when you get set to disagree, a Monkey on a golden chain is just as
much of a prisoner as a Monkey on an Iron chain.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/20/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Clueless and Shameless: Joe Biden, Staggering Frontrunner By Norman
Solomon, Reader Supported News
20 June 19
Joe Biden just put a spotlight on his mindset when he explicitly
refused to apologize for fondly recalling how the Senate "got things
done" with "civility" as he worked alongside some of the leading
racist lawmakers of the 20th century. For Biden, the personal is the
political; he knows that he's virtuous, and that should be more than
good enough for African Americans, for women, for anyone.
"There's not a racist bone in my body," Biden exclaimed Wednesday
night, moments after demanding: "Apologize for what?" His deep
paternalism surfaced during the angry outburst as he declared: "I've
been involved in civil rights my whole career, period, period,
period."
Biden has been "involved" in civil rights his "whole career" all
right. But at some crucial junctures, he was on the wrong side. He
teamed up with segregationist senators to oppose busing for school
desegregation in the 1970s. And he played a leading role - while
pandering to racism with a shameful Senate floor speech - for passage
of the infamous 1994 crime bill that fueled mass incarceration.
Such aspects of Biden's record provide context for his comments this
week - praising an era of productive "civility" with the virulent
segregationist Dixiecrat senators Herman Talmadge of Georgia and
James Eastland of Mississippi (known as the "Voice of the White
South"), who often called black people "an inferior race."
Said Biden at a New York fundraiser Tuesday night: "Well guess what?
At least there was some civility. We got things done. We didn't agree
on much of anything. We got things done. We got it finished."
To Biden, any assessment of his past conduct that clashes with his
high self-regard is unfair; after all, he really means well. On the
campaign trail now, his cloying paternalism is as evident as his
affinity for wealthy donors.
Biden shuttles between the billionaire class and the working class -
funded by the rich while justifying the rich to everyone else. His
aspirations are bound up in notions of himself as comforter-in-chief.
"I get it, I get it," Biden said during his brief and self-adulatory
non-apology video in early April to quiet the uproar over his
invasive touching of women and girls. He was actually saying: I get
it that I need to seem to get it.
"I want to talk about gestures of support and encouragement that I've
made to women and some men that have made them uncomfortable," Biden
said in the video. "In my career I've always tried to make a human
connection - that's my responsibility, I think. I shake hands, I hug
people, I grab men and women by the shoulders and say, 'You can do
this' . It's the way I've always been. It's the way I've tried to
show I care about them and I'm listening."
Weeks later, appearing on ABC's "The View," he declared: "I have
never in my life, never, done anything in approaching a woman that
has been other than trying to bring solace." It was not a credible
claim; consider Lucy Flores, or the countless other women and girls
he has intrusively touched over the years.
For several decades, Biden has made his way through the political
terrain as a reflexive glad-hander. But times have changed a lot more
than he has.
"What the American people do not know yet is whether Biden has
actually internalized any of the blowback he's earned over the years
for his treatment of women," journalist Joe Berkowitz wrote last week.
"So far, it's not looking good."
What's also looking grim is Biden's brazen adoration of wealthy
elites who feed on corporate power. His approach is to split the
rhetorical difference between the wealthy and the workers. And so,
days ago, at a fundraiser filled with almost 180 donors giving his
campaign the legal limit of $2,800 each - an event where he tried and
failed to get funding from a pro-Trump billionaire - Biden declared:
"You know, you guys are great but Wall Street didn't build America.
You guys are incredibly important but you didn't build America.
Ordinary, hard-working, middle-class people given half the chance is
what built America."
The formula boils down to throwing the "hard-working middle class"
some rhetorical bones while continuing to service "you guys" on Wall Street.
Given his desire to merely revert the country to pre-Trump days, no
wonder Biden keeps saying that a good future can stem from finding
common ground with Republicans. But for people who understand the
present-day GOP and really want a decent society, Biden's claims are delusional.
Biden sees his public roles of winking patriarch, civility toward
racists, and collaborator with oligarchs as a winning political
combination. But if he becomes the Democratic presidential nominee,
Biden will suppress turnout from the party's base while providing
Republicans with plenty of effective (albeit hypocritical) fodder.
Already the conservative press is salivating over the transparently
fraudulent pretenses of Lunch Bucket Joe, as in this headline Tuesday
in the right-wing Washington Examiner: "Biden Rubs Elbows With Billionaires in $34M
Penthouse."
When Bernie Sanders (who I continue to actively support) denounces
the political power of billionaires and repeats his 2020 campaign
motto - "Not Me. Us." - it rings true, consistent with his
decades-long record. But Biden can't outrun his own record, which is
enmeshed in his ongoing mentality.
And
so, the former vice president is in a race between his pleasant image
and unpleasant reality.
As the frontrunner for the Democratic presidential nomination, Joe
Biden is the biggest threat to Joe Biden's political future. He
continues to be who he has been, and that's the toxic problem.
Email This Page
Norman Solomon is cofounder and national coordinator of
RootsAction.org. He was a Bernie Sanders delegate from California to
the 2016 Democratic National Convention and is currently a
coordinator of the relaunched independent Bernie Delegates Network.
Solomon is the author of a dozen books including War Made Easy: How
Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.
Reader Supported News is the Publication of Origin for this work.
Permission
to republish is freely granted with credit and a link back to Reader
Supported News.
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