Miriam,
what you describe is not a minute of silent reflection, it is inflicted
Christian prayer and that sucks. That’s not what I am talking about at all.
But you are correct, and the Kim Davises and icke Huckabees and all the rest of
them want to make it into exactly what you describe. It is hideous and
scarring.
How many children have been brainwashed with this ultra right wing Christian
dogma to their detriment? The schools should be an antidote to this…and this is
precisely why the ultra Ortodox of every religion want to homeschool their
children, to keep them from that particular form of brainwashing. The fact that
they simple exchange one form of brain washing for another is lost on them.
On Sep 9, 2015, at 10:14 PM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
My father told me that this is a Christian country in response to a
complaint I was making about prayers in school. I attended a public school.
In class each morning, we had to fold our hands and say a silent prayer. In
assembly each week, a bible psalm was read and we sang Christian hymns. I
bitterly resented the bible reading and Christian hymns. But I also resented
the silent prayer each day. We didn't pray in my home and prayer meant, as
far as I knew and from what I'd been told, either asking God for something
or thanking Him for something. I hadn't made any decision about God yet. But
the silent prayer felt like an intrusion. And I knew that I was Jewish and
that I shouldn't have to sing Christian hymns if I didn't want to. And I'd
already been exposed to forced religious observance at Camp Wapanaki, which
should have been a secular camp for blind children, but certainly wasn't.
Well, Dr. Framton, who owned the New York Institute for the Blind and Camp
Wapanaki was, if I remember correctly, a minister. So on Sundays, everyone
who wanted to go to church was driven into town to do so. But if you didn't
attend church, attendance at the camp's Christian service was mandatory.
Well, it was until 1951, I believe. And it was much worse than my school
assembly. So given that history, I would prefer to leave all of that study
of various religious texts and moments for silent reflection, out of the
public school day. I would prefer that parents who want their children to
learn, at a tender age, about the world religions and to have the experience
of silent reflection or spiritual growth or whatever, arrange for them to
have such experiences away from public school.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 8:04 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Can we prove we are sane?
Miriam,
Culturally, you are correct, the US, just like most of the western
hemisphere, is Christian, much as the Middle East is Muslim, India is Hindu,
Japan is Shinto, and so on, although many of those examples do indeed allow
religious law to enter into and even govern civil law. Every region has a
dominant religion, again, if not theologically, then at least culturally. I
disagree about the silent minute at the start of a school day. It is
supposed to be exactly that, a minute of nothing, of silence, as I said, for
each person to fill with whatever thoughts he wishes, not necessarily
prayers. If that is monkeyed with, there will be plenty of people ready to
fight back, and that is good.
I know exactly what yur father meant. But this is what we must fight
against, as if there aren't a million other things to fight against. This is
a wholesale hijacking of the very laudable concept of religious freedom, a
concept that should, yeah, right, should obviate religious persecution or
prejudice in this country. If you live in Williamsburg, the one in Brooklyn,
not Virginia, then there is not too much feeling or evidence of that
Christian nation the evangelicals want to make you think is national in
scope. If you live in east Armpit, Indiana, then yes, indeed, the Christian
climate will predominate.
In Idaho and Utah, if you're not a Mormon, you are a second class citizen, a
dismissed minority.
And your father was probably right on the other matter too.although I'd say
it sort of relative to many things.
Alice
On Sep 9, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
My father, who dropped out of school after eighth grade and who, by
the way,
snuck into this country illegally at age 14, told me two things
while I was
growing up that I'll always remember. 1. Be wary of anyone whose
opinions or
actions are extreme. 2. Whatever people say, this is really a
Christian
nation. I suspect he was correct in both statements. IF they bring
back
those, "silent", periods to school, mark my words, they will quickly
be
filled with Christian prayers. There won't be verses from the
Koran,or any
alterntnative religious utterances, aside from, perhaps something
from the
old testament to give lip service to Judaism. Just like whatever we
call the
celebrations around December 25th, Winter Solstace or holiday
parties, we
all know that they're Christmas parties and we get Christmas off,
not the
day of the winter solstace. And, to remind you of our long and
heated debate
of several years ago, it is a Christmas tree on the White House
lawn,
whatever the historical and cultural origins of a Christmas tree may
be. And
one of the reasons for the power of the Israel Lobby, is the very
strong
support that it gets from Evangelical Christians. Jews had very
little power
in this country in the 30's and 40's when european Jews were being
slaughtered and Jewish organizations were begging the US to open its
borders
to German Jews. Israel's power increased because of cold war
politics. We
have this dream about what America is supposed to be and we become
confused
because people like President Obama, tell us that. we are who we are
supposed to be.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice
Dampman
Humel
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 2:23 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: my blog carl jarvis
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Can we prove we are sane?
Well, that is the one point we may diverge on, Carl.I maintain that
not all
religious, devout, pious, call them what you will, people are stupid
and,
conversely, not all atheists, agnostics, are brilliant. There's some
of each
in each.
I maintain, believe what you want. Go about observing your
observances as
you choose.and if you choose a religion, then more than likely, that
choice
includes observing the way they observe, and if you don't, that's
between
you and your conscience, and you will decide how quiet you keep it.
I know
plenty of Jews who keep kosher homes, but use summer vacations or
trips to
restaurants to indulge in that bacon cheeseburger or the twin
lobster
special. I know plenty of observant Catholics who use birth control,
live
with their lovers, and so on.
I even find it interesting to discuss, to understand, to be informed
about
the religions of others, what they believe, what they do, why they
do it,
traditions, etc. But when it crosses the line into one religion or
representative of a religion trying to make me do what his religion
dictates, then I say no.
This crap about the United States being a Christian country is utter
crap.
We are supposed to be a nation of religious tolerance, anyone can
practice
his or her religion freely with no strictures imposed upon him by
the
government, unless it involves criminal acts like murder, child
abuse,
theft, whatever, although it seems that some religions manage to get
away
with criminal acts anyway, and no one will bother you. However, the
flip
side of that pertains as well, the religious can not impose his will
on the
rest of society which does not share his religious beliefs and
practices.
That's where it all breaks down for me.
Not a Christian nation, but a nation that allows the free exercise
of
religious observance by its citizens with no government
interference.
Removing the recitation of the Lord's prayer from public schools?
Yes.
Removing the moment of silence for each kid to reflect, pray,
daydream, plan
an insurrection or a lunchroom prank? Maybe not.having a little
quiet time
is not such a bad idea, united in quiet.
Taking the reading of the Bible out of the schools? Perhaps rather
add
alternate readings from other holy books as an exercise in cultural
diversification is maybe a better idea. One day, the Bible, one day
the
Baghavad Gita, one day the Koran, one day Buddha, etc. The world's
cultures
are full of references to these things, literary, artistic,
theatrical,
musical, and if we all grow up ignorant of the reference points, we
lose
much of the aesthetic richness of both our own cultural heritage,
flawed
though it may be, and also that of others.
I read something recently, it went something like this: If a person
who
sells a same-sex couple a wedding cake can claim he is then part of
the
marriage, how come the person who sells a killer a gun can't be said
to be
part of the murder?
alice
On Sep 9, 2015, at 1:34 PM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Absolutely right, Alice. And you said it with far more control than
I. But you see, the entire premise is built upon one lie after
another. I'll pass over my contention that Man...Men, not Women
invented God. Let's say He really is here...or out there...or up
there. So now Mankind divides into groups, each waving a Holy Book
handed down to them by God...or whatever name they call Him.
But anyway, the Europeans came bumping their ships against the big
piles of land that stood between them and the Spice Center of the
world. And there were strange Beings wandering about this huge
Land.
And suddenly the Europeans God, both Catholic and the many
Protestant
denominations, called out to them saying, "It is good! This is your
Promised Land. Build my temples and worship me forever".
And so it came to pass that the Europeans claimed the Land in the
name
of...no, not in the name of God, but in the name of the Kings of the
several nations involved in this Land Grab. Oh sure, they had
banners
with crosses on them. They built churches and temples and went
forth
each Sunday Morning to Worship God and thank Him for sharing of His
bountiful wealth. But little of what God shared went back to God.
It
mostly went back to the Kings living far across the ocean. So
moving
right along, after butchering and raping and enslaving all the folks
who had believed they were entitled to live here, the Europeans
grabbed and fought among themselves. Finally a bunch of rascals,
the
equivalent to today's Terrorists, kicked the King of England out of
the Land and took over.
And even at that, later on this new nation split and fought among
its
own States over the right of men to own other men and women and
little
children.
And when that war was over the Industrialist went back to enslaving
the common people by forcing them to work six and seven days a week,
twelve to fourteen hours per day, for barely enough to pay for the
rent and food sold to them by their Bosses.
And here's the real joke. People today would have us believe that
this nation, these United States of America, is a Christian nation.
And we call ourselves intelligent?
Carl Jarvis
On 9/9/15, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
and this is precisely what they have no right to do.they are
free to not
have abortions, to not use burt control, to not have
homosexual
relationships, to not shop on whatever holy day their
religion binds them
to, to close their own business on that day if they own a
business,
whatever. But they have no right to impose any of that on
the rest of us if
the law says differently, the secularly defined law, not a
religious one.
and this is what I don't quite understand why there's not
more objection,
louder opposition to, this imposition of somebody else's
religious laws on
others. Kim Davis doesn't believe in gay marriage? Fine.
Then she should
not enter into one. But part of her job is to issue marriage
licenses, and
if the law permits gays to marry, or a man to marry a sheep,
or a woman to
marry a tree, then it is up to her to issue the license
whether she likes
the choice of spouse or not.again, to trot out everyone's
favorite
yardstick: what if she, in 2015, even in Kentucky, refused
to issue a
marriage license to an interracial couple? It's not for her
to impose her
religious views on others, and if she can't overcome herself
to uphold civil
law, then she should find another job.
Alice
On Sep 9, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
But they've been imposing their will on us, they and
the Catholic
Bishops.
No federal funds for abortion. And that Supreme
Court decision last year,
didn't that have to do with on the job medical
insurance benefits for
birth
control? And all those state regulations that have
eliminated abortion
clinics and added on requirements for women before
they can get their
abortions?
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 9:25 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [act-chat] Oops!
National Federation
of
the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by EEOC
Abdulah and all,
I get so furious every time I hear yet another story
about this sniveling
sack of shit Kim Davis and all her brainwashed
evangelical cohorts and
supporters, including the odious Mike Huckabee.
They keep yapping about how their religious freedom
is being taken away.
And
no one contradicts them, no one seems to have the
balls to say to them,
"You
have no idea what the concept of religious freedom
even means. You have
no
idea whatsoever what it means to have no religious
freedom. You are free
to
unobstructed and unchallenged practice any religion
you choose, complete
with whatever demands it makes of you, to comply
with all the dicta
attached
to that religion, from the standard denominations of
the world's
religions,
even the wacko sects of those religions, right down
to pastafarianism.
What
you are not permitted to do is impose those beliefs
and their
restrictions
on others. We do not live in a theocracy. We are
under no obligation to
observe any religion's laws if we ourselves do not
subscribe to that
religion. And you can't make us, no matter how hard
you try to shoehorn
the
concept of religious freedom into this form of
tyranny, right up there
with
fascism of the worst order. The lack of religious
freedom means that you
will be thrown in jail for mouthing off about your
wacko beliefs and/or
practicing them. When that happens, then we'll talk
about how Christians
are
being persecuted and you right wing evangelicals are
being deprived of
your
religious freedom. Bullshit. So until then, shut up
and go away."
Something like that.think I"m ready for prime time
yet? :)
Alice
On Sep 9, 2015, at 3:22 AM, abdulah aga
<abdulahhasic@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi
Hmmmm So it means that USA as capitalism People like
more religion
then money?,
So Saudi Arabia we know is religion country,
but they are work even Fridays,
in Saudi Arabia is Fridays weekend,
So I don't know then what start going on in USA with
people:
Maybe they are want to make all USA as Vatican? or
what?.
Abdulah Hasic.
-----Original Message----- From: Frank Ventura
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 11:57 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [act-chat] Oops!
National
Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious
Discrimination by EEOC
I wonder what would happen if people refused to work
on religious
days for Walmart, somehow I dount the EEOC would
have the guts to go
after
Wallyworld.
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of abdulah aga
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 4:30 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [act-chat] Oops!
National
Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious
Discrimination by EEOC
Hi
I don't know where this lead us?
When people start use religion to much as esquse for
something then
is not
good:
other word that esquse lead us in Couse or some type
of mess,
I know how looks like and I past true all this
things
So I would like ask smart NFB why they are didn't do
sem thinks in
my case with TX comition for the blind?
I would like ask smart NFB what would bee hempen if
Muslim people
say we don't work Fridays, because of are religion?
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 3:11 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [acb-chat] Oops!
National
Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious
Discrimination by EEOC
I guess the NFB is a bit narrow in their definition
of
discrimination? They recognize it only when it
happens to blind people?
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Charles
Krugman (Redacted sender "ckrugman@xxxxxxxxxxxxx"
for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 3:38 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: [acb-chat] Oops!
National
Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious
Discrimination by EEOC
and the stupidity award goes to the National
Federation of the
Blind! I wonder whether the NFB membership will be
apprized of this.
Chuck
From: R. E. Driscoll Sr <mailto:llocsirdsr@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 9:39 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Fwd: [acb-chat] Oops!
National Federation
of the Blind Sued for Religious Discrimination by
EEOC
All:
This came in the morning mail. It had rather long
"TO and COPY"
sections which I have deleted... Further details may
be found in the
link.
R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
National Federation of the Blind Sued for Religious
Discrimination
by EEOC
Advocacy Group Terminated an Employee because He
Would Not Work on
the Sabbath, Federal Agency Charged
BALTIMORE - The National Federation of the Blind,
the largest
organization of blind and low-vision people in the
United States,
violated
federal law when it refused to allow an employee to
observe his Sabbath
and
instead terminated him because of his religion, the
U.S. Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission (EEOC) charged in a lawsuit
it announced today.
According to the lawsuit, Joseph R. Massey II is a
practicing Hebrew
Pentecostal, a Christian denomination, and abstains
from working from
sunset
Friday to sunset Saturday based on his
sincerely-held religious beliefs.
The National Federation of the Blind hired Massey
for a bookkeeping
position at its Baltimore office in November 2013.
In January 2014, the
Federation told Massey he had to work certain
Saturdays. Massey
explained
he could not work Saturdays due to his religious
faith and suggested
alternatives such as working on Sundays or working
late on week nights
other
than Fridays. EEOC charged that the Federation
refused to provide any
reasonable accommodation and instead fired Massey
because he could not
work
Saturdays due to his religious beliefs.
Such alleged conduct violates Title VII of the Civil
Rights Act of
1964, which prohibits employers from discriminating
against individuals
because of their religion and requires employers to
reasonably
accommodate
an employee's sincerely-held religious beliefs
unless doing so would
impose
an undue hardship on the employer. EEOC filed suit
(EEOC v. The National
Federation of the Blind, Civil Action No.
1:15-cv-02484-GLR) in U.S.
District Court for the District of Maryland,
Baltimore Division,
after first attempting to reach a pre-litigation
settlement through its
conciliation process.
"Employees should not have to choose between their
jobs and their
religious convictions when a religious accommodation
will not unduly
burden
others,"
said EEOC Philadelphia District Director Spencer H.
Lewis, Jr.
EEOC Regional Attorney Debra M. Lawrence added,
"Most religious
accommodations are not unduly costly, such as
allowing an employee to
switch
his schedule to observe his Sabbath. No employee
should be forced to
choose
between earning a living and following the dictates
of his faith."
EEOC's Philadelphia District Office has jurisdiction
over
Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia and
parts of New Jersey
and
Ohio. Its legal staff also prosecutes
discrimination cases arising from
Washington, D.C. and parts of Virginia.
EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting employment
discrimination.
Further information about the agency is available at
its website,
www.eeoc.gov
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eeoc.gov&d=BQMCaQ&c
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7b411a6fc>
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