Like I said, when someone has a question either implicit or explict the
normal, natural and polite thing to do is to answer it. If what you say
is, what is art? you are explicitly asking a question and if I have the
answer I answer it. If you say, I don't know what art is, and I do know
then it is the normal, natural and polite thing to do if I tell you what
it is. I might also add that it is incredible to me that you do not
remember the discussion on art. It went on so long. You said that you
didn't know what art is. I simply said that art is the human imposition
of patterns on some medium. I really expected that would be the end of
it, but Alice had to throw one of her fits. I will admit that art is not
one of the things that I know a lot about. It has never interested me
much, but at least I think I know what it is. I can recognize art when I
see it just because patterns have been imposed on some medium whether it
is a canvass, a piece of rock or even if it is language. In fact, that
last one is something I figured out from the discussion. I had never
thought of it before, but I came to the conclusion that poetry is an
example of art. However, Alice and you too got very upset over my simply
explaining what it is. For one thing , it makes no sense to me that the
very person who stated an ignorance of what art is would get upset over
having it explained. As for Alice, she ranted on and on, but never, not
even once, offered another explanation of what art is. If she had I
might have seen it as better than my own explanation and changed my
mind. But despite my own ignorance of the details of art I was never
even offered an explanation of what it is other than the one I offered.
And I really don't understand how a simple explanation of something that
is not understood could cause so much strife. It is as if I walk into a
room and say hi and come under attack for it.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/13/2019 9:42 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
Does it occur to you that there might be a reason why so many of us on the
list, end up arguing with you from time to time and that the reason might have
to do with you and not us?
Perhaps it isn't your responsibility to provide information whenever it seems
to you that you have the answer to a question and we do not.
I don't remember the art discussion, but I suspect that if I said that I don't
know what art is, I was making a statement about art, not a statement about my
ignorance. If one is very literal minded, one has difficulty telling the
difference between rhetorical questions, statements phrased as questions, and
actual questions.
Carl is a wonderful model of tact, gentleness, and modesty for all of us. He
knows how to avoid conflict with people while continuing to hold his beliefs.
His response to you about Fascism was identical to mine, but stated so
cleverly, that you never perceived it as a challenge.
I am going to tell you how I feel about your explanations. This is a statement
of feeling. Feelings and emotions are real and they don't change because
someone explains why one shouldn't have them. When you explain things and you
think that you're just giving information and you insist that your explanation
is correct with logical and/or literary backup, I feel as if I were being
bullied. I feel like I can't express thoughts or feelings without being
corrected. I feel, probably like you do whenfundamentalist Christians insist on
explaining to you why there really is a God or when Mustafa explains to you why
Islam is the true faith.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On
Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 10:49 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as Assange is
Arrested
I do not make that assumption. When I don't know anything about a topic at hand
I usually don't say anything or if I do say something it is questions that will
help me understand what I do not know anything about, but in the instances that
I find myself obligated to explain or to answer questions, either implicit or
explicit, I don't have to assume that I know more because it is obvious that I
do. To go back to the example that I was using, if you say that you do not know
what art is then that is an admission of ignorance and if I do happen to know
what art is it would be negligent on my part to not answer the implicit
question. In a more recent example I noticed Carl misusing a word, fascist, and
I simply offered a quick explanation of what it is and why such loose use of a
word that actually means something should be avoided. Again, it was a brief
comment and there was no need for it to be discussed any further. But for
whatever reason you decided to jump all over me about it and you felt like you
had to defend the misuse of the word. I noticed that Carl simply accepted what
I had to say and said so. I will also say that while reading this very message
to which I am replying I was thinking of saying that this is another example of
my having a debate forced on me and then at the end of your message you say
that you don't want to continue the debate. Okay, I don't either, but it is you
who started and continued the debate. All I did was to make a very brief and
passing comment on the misuse of a word. You are also the one who uses the word
superior. That did not come from me. I am well aware that you and everyone else
has knowledge that I do not have. I used the example of the adoption business
as an example before. I am certain that you know a lot more about that subject
than I do because I know virtually nothing about it and so I am fully ready to
defer to your knowledge on that subject. If you want to use the word superior
then I would be very ready to admit that your knowledge of the adoption
business is entirely superior to mine. When you have mentioned something about
it now and then on this list that is an example of my having not had anything
to say about it because I don't know anything about it.
However, if I did say something about it and my ignorance caused me to make a
mistake and you corrected me I would accept your correction and I would
certainly not try to argue with you about something I know nothing about and
that you do know about. But at the same time there are things that I know
about. If you insist on the word superior then I suppose I have superior
knowledge on those specific areas. Somehow in my case when I try to explain the
things that I do know something about someone always wants to start arguing
with me. It is so frustrating for me to make casual comments that I think are
not going to even start a discussion and then someone has to start arguing with
me as if I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about. Just imagine
what it would be like for you if on those occasions that you have mentioned the
adoption business if I had started denying the validity of anything you said
and tried to make it out that you were the one who did not know what you were
talking about. Then what if I started criticizing you for assuming that your
knowledge was superior. Well, I suppose your knowledge is superior in that
area. But what if I told you that it would help if you didn't assume that your
knowledge of the adoption business was superior? Frankly, Miriam, what would
really be helpful is if you and everyone else just accepted that all of us have
certain areas that we know more about than the others and that all of us have
many more areas that we know nothing about. With that acceptance some mutual
learning could be accomplished. I fully realize that. But I still have to put
up with the attitude that whenever I try to say anything about something that I
do know about that I have to be argued with. It would work a lot better if we
could just all see each other as equals rather than single me out as the
inferior ignoramus who does not even know about his own fields of interest.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/12/2019 9:56 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
It would be helpful if you didn't assume that you know more than the rest of us
and that it's your responsibility to explain things. We end up having debates
because I, or someone else, doesn't accept your assertion that your knowledge
of a particular subject is superior. Your intellect is superior. Your tech
skills are superior. But I don't accept that your knowledge of all of the
subjects that you've felt it necessary to explain to me or anyone else, is
superior. And that finishes my part of the discussion on this subject because
I'm not willing to continue the debate.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:28 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
It would be too time consuming to respond to all of what you have to say here.
So let me just respond to the last point about not wanting to have debates.
Frankly, I don't particularly want to have debates either.
Mostafa is an exception. I do consider myself to have been debating him.
At least I do until he withdraws from the debate and starts throwing tantrums.
That kind of shuts down the debate. However, otherwise I have not been trying
to debate despite you repeated assumption that I am.
It's like this. What am I supposed to do when someone says something that shows
that he or she does not understand something that I do understand. It seems to
me that the natural, normal and polite thing to do is to explain it. My
expectation is that the person will accept it and if there is a response it
will be in the form of questions so that I might clarify something that I might
have been unclear about. But when the other person wants to turn it into a
debate I am not the one who is trying to have a debate. It is someone else who
is trying to have the debate. I remember the time that you said that you didn't
know what art is. I offered up a concise simple explanation of what it is. I
really expected that would be the end of it. Instead I was denounced as
virtually the epitome of evil for simply explaining what art is. The one with
the greatest indignation was Alice. But no matter how much she denounced my
explanation of what art is she never, not once, offered an alternative
explanation of it. It was as if the greatest crime imaginable was simply trying
to explain it at all. But that was not in any way an attempt on my part to have
a debate. It was simply an attempt to answer an implicit question. And that is
usually the case. Yes, call what I have been doing with Mostafa a debate, but
otherwise I seem to have debates forced on me when I have no intention of
debating and then I am the one who is accused of trying to debate.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/12/2019 4:41 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
I'm sorry that I made that unfounded assumption about the book and about where
you were coming from. I do apologize.
I listened to Noam Chomsky on Democracy Now this morning. I don't know if
you've ever heard him talk or read any of his writing. He's celebrating his
90th birthday and to me, he seems like one of the most intelligent,
knowledgeable people that I've ever come across. He was comparing what is
happening here in the US, as well as in several Latin American countries and
European countries, to what was happening in Italy and Germany in 1939. He
quoted someone, perhaps Mark Twain, can't remember, to the effect that history
doesn't exactly repeat itself, but it rhymes.
I know that precise definitions are very important to you. I tend to be more
like Carl in this respect. I just know how all of this feels to me. Maybe
Fascism isn't the correct word from your prospective, but we're not in an
academic seminar. We're just bullshitting here on an email list. If we get
something wrong, it doesn't matter a whole lot. But it does matter if we insult
each other, even inadvertently.
Back in 1971, I was a member of a women's consciousness raising group. We talked about a lot of very sensitive things and when
the group started, we were strangers. So there were some rules that had been laid out for new groups by the people at the State
College who initiated the consciousness raising groups. The idea was to not be judgemental or accusatory toward each other.
Everyone should be able to state her experiences and feelings without people stating their opinions about what was said. That
meant that we didn't say, "I think you're wrong." Or "I'd never act that way", or, "I'd never feel that
way". But one could say, "These are my experiences." "This is what I felt when that happened to me".
And we never tried to teach each other anything. We just listened and shared. I think that on this list, we're just trying to
listen and share. We don't expect that we're going to change each other's minds about life, especially not those of us who are
more than 70 years old. We're not attempting to show off about superior intellect or superior education. Most list members don't
want to post at all and some of us who do, don't want to have debates. We just want a place where it's safe to share what's
important to us.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 3:19 PM
To: blind-democracy<blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
Miriam, in a way you are like Mostafa. You make assumptions about me
that have no basis in anything. I cannot count the number of times that I have
expressed my personal opinion and you have dismissed it as Marxist theory as if
I don't have any opinions of my own. Now I find a book on bookshare that I have
not even read, but the synopsis seems to indicate that it might have an
explanation of what fascism is and you dismiss it as a book that will give a
Marxist definition of fascism. How can you be so sure of that when I, myself,
don't know that it has anything to do with Marxism? This attitude is like
Mostafa's in another way too. That is, you have your mind made up about what
fascism is and you just don't want to even be exposed to anything that might
show that it is something else. Okay, don't read that book. I have nnot read it
myself and I don't know that I will. But at least think about this. When there
is a word that describes an entire political ideology don't you think that
using it as a synonym for authoritarianism or just as an insult word for name
calling is just about bound to lead you to be using the word wrong? You said
yourself that calling Obama a communist was just crazy. Frankly, I strongly
suspect that the people who do call him a communist know that he is not even
close to a communist. It is just name calling, not political analysis, just
name calling. Well the word fascist is used for a lot of name calling too.
Unfortunagtely, I suspecgt that a lot of the people who use fascist as a name
calling insult word really don't know that the ones they are callingg fascist
are not even close to being fascists.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 5:34 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Thanks. I'm really not motivated to read a whole book giving me a Marxist definition of
Fascism. I'm having enough problems getting to read the books that I'm truly motivated to
read. But although we may not have a developed workers' movement, we have a lot of
frustrated folks whom I would define as blue collar and lower middle class and a whole
lot of angry people who are white, however, you wish to define their class status. And
they are following Trump because he gives them explanations that appeal to them for why
their lives haven't turned out as they wish. He tells them that their jobs have been
stolen by foreigners, some in other countries and some who have emigrated here. He tells
them that life will feel better if their country as the richest, most powerful in the
world. He hands them scapegoats like the media and criminals and enemies whom he
identifies at rallies. And he has rallies, constantly, to rile up his base. And he
praises the Police. I'm sure that a majority of police officers love him. Police officers
and prison guards and ICE officers. The electrician who came to repair things for me ever
since the mid nineties, who is a very kind man, has a huge Trump sign on his truck. I'll
bet that the guy who used to repair my appliances, voted for him too. The woman who used
to drive me to medical appointments, voted for him, and probably the one who did my
shopping and errands and whom I've known since 1993 did too. They're all white Long
Island blue collar people. These folks are organized by watching Fox Cable TV. They may
not be your idea of a movement, but they are one anyway. I remember my shopping person
saying to me, "I don't agree with Trump about a lot of things, but he's right about
the immigrants". The statistic I heard yesterday is that 40% of the country
supports him and his policies.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey<rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 4:25 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam
Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum
as Assange is Arrested
Trump does come a bit closer to being a fascist than Obama comes to being a
communist, but the dictionary definition you came up with is rather simplistic.
Fascism requires certain conditions to come about. It is a working class
movement that has been hijacked by a demagogue to justify imperialism. The
demagogue sets sections of the working class against another section. If their
is a tendency toward fascism in Trump it is his anti-immigrant stance, but he
has not misdirected a workers movement into that kind of movement. For one
thing, there simply is not a workers movement that is available to scapegoat
immigrants. If you want to see an incipient fascist look at Patrick Buchannon.
Whatever happened to him anyway? He also did not have a mass workers movement
to misdirect and so he was only an incipient fascist. However, he did engage in
some anti-capitalist sounding rhetoric and blamed foreign sections of the
working class, not capitalists, for the economic woes of the American working
class. There is a book that I would like to recommend called What is Fascism
and How to Fight it. I just looked for it on Bookshare and it wasn't there.
Right now I don't have time to check around to try to find another source of an
accessible copy, but it does a pretty good job of explaining what fascism is
and under what conditions it develops. However, while checking Bookshare I did
find something else that looks promising. I should be wary of recommending
books that I have not read, but the synopsis indicates that it might have some
pretty good information It is called simply What is Fascism.
Here is a link to it:
https://www.bookshare.org/browse/book/2236389?returnPath=L3NlYXJjaD9
t
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2R1bGVOYW1lPXB1YmxpYyZrZXl3b3JkPSZxdW90O3doYXQgaXMgZmFzY2lzbSZxdW90O
w
%
3D%3D
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 3:55 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Calling Obama a Communist is crazy because there's nothing about his philosophy of
government or his actions as president that resembles Communism or Socialism or even
the left wing of the Democratic Party. He's clearly a centrist with progressive
social values. Here's what I found in the dictionary"
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime
(such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race
above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic
government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and
social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or
dictatorial control
So why doesn't that fit Trump's vision and that of the current right wing of
the Republican Party?
Miriam
Other Words from fascism
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 3:25 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
There are those who have called Barack Obama a communist too. He is not and
never was. It is just as inaccurate to call Trump a fascist. Fascism is not a
synonym for authoritarianism.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 3:15 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I think Trump and his loyal base are the real thing, regardless of what
the politically correct definition is. He and they reject all accepted
international norms regarding democratic law and human rights and, in case you
haven't noticed, there is a right wing takeover of the legal system which will
last for generations, and a dissolution of most of the existing safeguards to
civil liberties, financial security, and environmental protection. The only
industry that we have left is the war industry. If Fascism isn't the correct
label, does it really matter?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 2:56 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
It would be well to remember that fascism has a specific meaning and its
development requires certain historical conditions including a radicalization
of the working class. Fascist is not just a synonym for authoritarian. I now
forget who it was, but in the seventies just after Nixon resigned there was a
socialist leader who said that those who called Richard Nixon a fascist would
find it hard to be listened to when the real thing came along.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 11:08 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Everything Americans believed we were defending against, when we
entered WWII, is now us. We sacrificed so many young lives, and
we devastated the homes and lands of so many people who were also
victims, in order to end Fascism. Only to find ourselves
embracing Fascism, not only in our own Land but encouraging it in
nations around the Globe.
And now the American Empire, through its cohort Briton, finally
has its clutches on Julian Assange. We will be witness to a
trial that will look exactly like the Mock Trials we once denounced.
And when the final verdict is handed down, and Julian Assange is
placed in solitary confinement, the New World Fascists will
openly and boldly and viciously eliminate any remaining vestige of Free Speech.
Then they will sing songs of victory...until their asthmatic,
cancer-ridden throats and lungs can no longer suck in another
breath of the polluted air they have created.
Carl Jarvis
On 4/11/19, Miriam Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
BREAKING—Moreno Withdraws Asylum as Assange is Arrested
April 11, 2019 • 13 Comments
The WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has been arrested after the
Ecuadorian president, Lenin Moreno, withdrew Assange’s asylum,
in a move that runs counter to international asylum law.
WikiLeaks tweeted that Ecuador allowed British police into the
London embassy to arrest Assange at around 10:30 am British
time,
5:30 am in Washington.
This is the moment when Assange was dragged out by police. He
was heard to say, “The UK must resist this….the UK must resist.”
Assange was taken with an arrest warrant for skipping bail when
he entered the Ecuadorian embassy in June 2012, fearing
extradition to the United States, where there is a sealed
indictment with his name on it. Assange lawyer Jennifer
Robinson tweeted that he has been arrested for breach of bail conditions and
also because of a request for extradition from the U.S.
Assange was taken a police station and will later be brought to
Magistrate’s court, according to a tweet from Christine Assange,
Julian’s mother.
Former Ecuadorian President Rafael Correrá reacted by calling
Moreno the “greatest traitor in Ecuadorian and Latin American history.”
Full translation: “The greatest traitor in Ecuadorian and Latin
American history, Lenin Moreno, allowed the British police to
enter our embassy in London to arrest Assange. Moreno is a
corrupt, but what he has done is a crime that humanity will never forget.”
Moreno made a national television address to announce his decision.
While the expulsion of a refugee to a country that could harm
him for political reasons, known as refoulement, is against
international law, Moreno accused Assange of “repeated
violations to international conventions and daily-life protocols.”
Unity4J will hold an emergency vigil under the hashtag
#FreeJulian beginning at noon U.S. Eastern Standard Time that
will be webcast live on Consortium News.
NSA whistleblower Ed Snowden reacted on Twitter:
Journalist and filmmaker John Pilger tweeted:
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