It would be too time consuming to respond to all of what you have to say
here. So let me just respond to the last point about not wanting to have
debates. Frankly, I don't particularly want to have debates either.
Mostafa is an exception. I do consider myself to have been debating him.
At least I do until he withdraws from the debate and starts throwing
tantrums. That kind of shuts down the debate. However, otherwise I have
not been trying to debate despite you repeated assumption that I am.
It's like this. What am I supposed to do when someone says something
that shows that he or she does not understand something that I do
understand. It seems to me that the natural, normal and polite thing to
do is to explain it. My expectation is that the person will accept it
and if there is a response it will be in the form of questions so that I
might clarify something that I might have been unclear about. But when
the other person wants to turn it into a debate I am not the one who is
trying to have a debate. It is someone else who is trying to have the
debate. I remember the time that you said that you didn't know what art
is. I offered up a concise simple explanation of what it is. I really
expected that would be the end of it. Instead I was denounced as
virtually the epitome of evil for simply explaining what art is. The one
with the greatest indignation was Alice. But no matter how much she
denounced my explanation of what art is she never, not once, offered an
alternative explanation of it. It was as if the greatest crime
imaginable was simply trying to explain it at all. But that was not in
any way an attempt on my part to have a debate. It was simply an attempt
to answer an implicit question. And that is usually the case. Yes, call
what I have been doing with Mostafa a debate, but otherwise I seem to
have debates forced on me when I have no intention of debating and then
I am the one who is accused of trying to debate.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/12/2019 4:41 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
I'm sorry that I made that unfounded assumption about the book and about where
you were coming from. I do apologize.
I listened to Noam Chomsky on Democracy Now this morning. I don't know if
you've ever heard him talk or read any of his writing. He's celebrating his
90th birthday and to me, he seems like one of the most intelligent,
knowledgeable people that I've ever come across. He was comparing what is
happening here in the US, as well as in several Latin American countries and
European countries, to what was happening in Italy and Germany in 1939. He
quoted someone, perhaps Mark Twain, can't remember, to the effect that history
doesn't exactly repeat itself, but it rhymes.
I know that precise definitions are very important to you. I tend to be more
like Carl in this respect. I just know how all of this feels to me. Maybe
Fascism isn't the correct word from your prospective, but we're not in an
academic seminar. We're just bullshitting here on an email list. If we get
something wrong, it doesn't matter a whole lot. But it does matter if we insult
each other, even inadvertently.
Back in 1971, I was a member of a women's consciousness raising group. We talked about a lot of very sensitive things and when
the group started, we were strangers. So there were some rules that had been laid out for new groups by the people at the State
College who initiated the consciousness raising groups. The idea was to not be judgemental or accusatory toward each other.
Everyone should be able to state her experiences and feelings without people stating their opinions about what was said. That
meant that we didn't say, "I think you're wrong." Or "I'd never act that way", or, "I'd never feel that
way". But one could say, "These are my experiences." "This is what I felt when that happened to me".
And we never tried to teach each other anything. We just listened and shared. I think that on this list, we're just trying to
listen and share. We don't expect that we're going to change each other's minds about life, especially not those of us who are
more than 70 years old. We're not attempting to show off about superior intellect or superior education. Most list members don't
want to post at all and some of us who do, don't want to have debates. We just want a place where it's safe to share what's
important to us.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On
Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 3:19 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as Assange is
Arrested
Miriam, in a way you are like Mostafa. You make assumptions about me that
have no basis in anything. I cannot count the number of times that I have
expressed my personal opinion and you have dismissed it as Marxist theory as if
I don't have any opinions of my own. Now I find a book on bookshare that I have
not even read, but the synopsis seems to indicate that it might have an
explanation of what fascism is and you dismiss it as a book that will give a
Marxist definition of fascism. How can you be so sure of that when I, myself,
don't know that it has anything to do with Marxism? This attitude is like
Mostafa's in another way too. That is, you have your mind made up about what
fascism is and you just don't want to even be exposed to anything that might
show that it is something else. Okay, don't read that book. I have nnot read it
myself and I don't know that I will. But at least think about this. When there
is a word that describes an entire political ideology don't you think that
using it as a synonym for authoritarianism or just as an insult word for name
calling is just about bound to lead you to be using the word wrong? You said
yourself that calling Obama a communist was just crazy. Frankly, I strongly
suspect that the people who do call him a communist know that he is not even
close to a communist. It is just name calling, not political analysis, just
name calling. Well the word fascist is used for a lot of name calling too.
Unfortunagtely, I suspecgt that a lot of the people who use fascist as a name
calling insult word really don't know that the ones they are callingg fascist
are not even close to being fascists.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 5:34 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Thanks. I'm really not motivated to read a whole book giving me a Marxist definition of
Fascism. I'm having enough problems getting to read the books that I'm truly motivated to
read. But although we may not have a developed workers' movement, we have a lot of
frustrated folks whom I would define as blue collar and lower middle class and a whole
lot of angry people who are white, however, you wish to define their class status. And
they are following Trump because he gives them explanations that appeal to them for why
their lives haven't turned out as they wish. He tells them that their jobs have been
stolen by foreigners, some in other countries and some who have emigrated here. He tells
them that life will feel better if their country as the richest, most powerful in the
world. He hands them scapegoats like the media and criminals and enemies whom he
identifies at rallies. And he has rallies, constantly, to rile up his base. And he
praises the Police. I'm sure that a majority of police officers love him. Police officers
and prison guards and ICE officers. The electrician who came to repair things for me ever
since the mid nineties, who is a very kind man, has a huge Trump sign on his truck. I'll
bet that the guy who used to repair my appliances, voted for him too. The woman who used
to drive me to medical appointments, voted for him, and probably the one who did my
shopping and errands and whom I've known since 1993 did too. They're all white Long
Island blue collar people. These folks are organized by watching Fox Cable TV. They may
not be your idea of a movement, but they are one anyway. I remember my shopping person
saying to me, "I don't agree with Trump about a lot of things, but he's right about
the immigrants". The statistic I heard yesterday is that 40% of the country
supports him and his policies.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey<rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 4:25 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam
Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
Trump does come a bit closer to being a fascist than Obama comes to being a
communist, but the dictionary definition you came up with is rather simplistic.
Fascism requires certain conditions to come about. It is a working class
movement that has been hijacked by a demagogue to justify imperialism. The
demagogue sets sections of the working class against another section. If their
is a tendency toward fascism in Trump it is his anti-immigrant stance, but he
has not misdirected a workers movement into that kind of movement. For one
thing, there simply is not a workers movement that is available to scapegoat
immigrants. If you want to see an incipient fascist look at Patrick Buchannon.
Whatever happened to him anyway? He also did not have a mass workers movement
to misdirect and so he was only an incipient fascist. However, he did engage in
some anti-capitalist sounding rhetoric and blamed foreign sections of the
working class, not capitalists, for the economic woes of the American working
class. There is a book that I would like to recommend called What is Fascism
and How to Fight it. I just looked for it on Bookshare and it wasn't there.
Right now I don't have time to check around to try to find another source of an
accessible copy, but it does a pretty good job of explaining what fascism is
and under what conditions it develops. However, while checking Bookshare I did
find something else that looks promising. I should be wary of recommending
books that I have not read, but the synopsis indicates that it might have some
pretty good information It is called simply What is Fascism.
Here is a link to it:
https://www.bookshare.org/browse/book/2236389?returnPath=L3NlYXJjaD9tb
2R1bGVOYW1lPXB1YmxpYyZrZXl3b3JkPSZxdW90O3doYXQgaXMgZmFzY2lzbSZxdW90Ow%
3D%3D
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 3:55 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Calling Obama a Communist is crazy because there's nothing about his philosophy of
government or his actions as president that resembles Communism or Socialism or even
the left wing of the Democratic Party. He's clearly a centrist with progressive
social values. Here's what I found in the dictionary"
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime
(such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race
above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic
government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social
regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or
dictatorial control
So why doesn't that fit Trump's vision and that of the current right wing of
the Republican Party?
Miriam
Other Words from fascism
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 3:25 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
There are those who have called Barack Obama a communist too. He is not and
never was. It is just as inaccurate to call Trump a fascist. Fascism is not a
synonym for authoritarianism.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 3:15 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I think Trump and his loyal base are the real thing, regardless of what
the politically correct definition is. He and they reject all accepted
international norms regarding democratic law and human rights and, in case you
haven't noticed, there is a right wing takeover of the legal system which will
last for generations, and a dissolution of most of the existing safeguards to
civil liberties, financial security, and environmental protection. The only
industry that we have left is the war industry. If Fascism isn't the correct
label, does it really matter?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 2:56 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
It would be well to remember that fascism has a specific meaning and its
development requires certain historical conditions including a radicalization
of the working class. Fascist is not just a synonym for authoritarian. I now
forget who it was, but in the seventies just after Nixon resigned there was a
socialist leader who said that those who called Richard Nixon a fascist would
find it hard to be listened to when the real thing came along.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 11:08 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Everything Americans believed we were defending against, when we
entered WWII, is now us. We sacrificed so many young lives, and we
devastated the homes and lands of so many people who were also
victims, in order to end Fascism. Only to find ourselves embracing
Fascism, not only in our own Land but encouraging it in nations
around the Globe.
And now the American Empire, through its cohort Briton, finally has
its clutches on Julian Assange. We will be witness to a trial that
will look exactly like the Mock Trials we once denounced. And when
the final verdict is handed down, and Julian Assange is placed in
solitary confinement, the New World Fascists will openly and boldly
and viciously eliminate any remaining vestige of Free Speech.
Then they will sing songs of victory...until their asthmatic,
cancer-ridden throats and lungs can no longer suck in another
breath of the polluted air they have created.
Carl Jarvis
On 4/11/19, Miriam Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
BREAKING—Moreno Withdraws Asylum as Assange is Arrested
April 11, 2019 • 13 Comments
The WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has been arrested after the
Ecuadorian president, Lenin Moreno, withdrew Assange’s asylum, in
a move that runs counter to international asylum law.
WikiLeaks tweeted that Ecuador allowed British police into the
London embassy to arrest Assange at around 10:30 am British time,
5:30 am in Washington.
This is the moment when Assange was dragged out by police. He was
heard to say, “The UK must resist this….the UK must resist.”
Assange was taken with an arrest warrant for skipping bail when he
entered the Ecuadorian embassy in June 2012, fearing extradition
to the United States, where there is a sealed indictment with his
name on it. Assange lawyer Jennifer Robinson tweeted that he has
been arrested for breach of bail conditions and also because of a request for
extradition from the U.S.
Assange was taken a police station and will later be brought to
Magistrate’s court, according to a tweet from Christine Assange,
Julian’s mother.
Former Ecuadorian President Rafael Correrá reacted by calling
Moreno the “greatest traitor in Ecuadorian and Latin American history.”
Full translation: “The greatest traitor in Ecuadorian and Latin
American history, Lenin Moreno, allowed the British police to
enter our embassy in London to arrest Assange. Moreno is a
corrupt, but what he has done is a crime that humanity will never forget.”
Moreno made a national television address to announce his decision.
While the expulsion of a refugee to a country that could harm him
for political reasons, known as refoulement, is against
international law, Moreno accused Assange of “repeated violations
to international conventions and daily-life protocols.”
Unity4J will hold an emergency vigil under the hashtag #FreeJulian
beginning at noon U.S. Eastern Standard Time that will be webcast
live on Consortium News.
NSA whistleblower Ed Snowden reacted on Twitter:
Journalist and filmmaker John Pilger tweeted:
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