I think you are talking about the Masai. I wonder if her opinion might
have been different back when she was about twelve years old and being
held down for the knife.
On 10/5/2018 3:35 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I was in Kenya in 1986 and a group of Kenyans were talking to us about their
beliefs and their feelings about Westerners. There was a woman who spoke, a
member of one of the tribes considered to be more primitive than the major
tribes. Of course, I can't remember the name of the tribe, but I did visit one
of their encampments later on and they traveled with cattle. Their dwellings
were made of cattle dung. There were flies all over the place, including
crdawling on the eyes of one of their babies. Members of that tribe gathered
wherever there were tourists traveling through the land at the places where
tourists stopped for refreshment, and the tribal women would swarm around us,
thrusting objects at us that they wanted to sell and yeling at us to get our
attention. Anyway, this woman who talked to us in a room at the American
embassy was a member of that tribe. She spoke english beautifully, was
obviously well educated, and she was very articulate. She said that her tribe
practiced FGM, and that she resented Westerners who acted sympathetic toward
her or voiced disapproval of the practice because this practice was part of her
cultural heritage. She was proud of her cultural heritage, and she resented
people who came from a different background, acting as if their beliefs and
practices were superior to her's. I won't ever forget her because she taught me
something about myself and my sense of cultural superiority. I think the way I
do, and continue to have the values that I have, but I'm just one person in a
huge world with vast numbers of people with very different experiences and
ideas and I can't claim that my way of viewing the world is more valid than
anyone else's, not objectively. I can only be who I am.
Miriam
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Sent: Friday, October 05, 2018 2:31 PM
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Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Allegations and moral bleak
As far as I am concerned if you sincerely believe in religious doctrine then
you are a religious extremist because religious doctrine - of any religion - is
extremely ridiculous. As for female genital mutilation, it is my understanding
that it is mainly practiced in subSaharan Africa, but that is not to say that
it is not practiced anywhere else. I think I did once come across some
reference to it in Saudi Arabia once, but the impression I got is that it is
rare there. I don't think it is necessarily an exclusive Muslim practice
either. I understand that a good number of subSaharan Christians engage in it
too.
On 10/5/2018 1:16 AM, Mostafa wrote:
Yes Roger, that's true. The practice of honour killings may dominate
Pakistan, but I am not so sure about this inhumane practice in
SubSaharan nations. This terrible practice is often perpetrated by
illiterates who haven't learnt proper theology. Nevertheless,
prominent Shariah scholars have strictly prohibited this act. So I am
not sure, what are we talking about? Could I've just turned Fox News
on by mistake? Miriam, as for extreme sects, we need first to clearly
define what do we actually mean by religious extremism? I am bound to
stiff religious tenets. I consider myself to be moderate in my views.
As for Saudi clerics, I wouldn't call them extremists. That's a bit of
naively mimicking what the nescient mass media says. I would at least
consider some of them to be leaning toward religious conservatism. But
as for others, they are theologically edified, deferential and
cultured. I went there many times and I knew what I am talking about.
Now, as for the United States and its relationship to the rest of the
world, we are somewhat coerced to counter this incompetent president
who is intemperately demagogic, counterfeit, flamboyant, prurient and
broadly cantankerous. He doesn't mind opting someone for the supreme
court justice who's enormously disreputable and morally dishonoured.
The United States alleged decent reputation has been shattered.
Nevertheless, we are still hearing some folks therein telling us how
to live, what to wear and so forth. It certainly is none Of Your
Business whether women obtain driving license in Saudi. It is
perfectly a domestic affair, and it has to be determined between Saudi
women and their government. You may devotedly recognise that appeal.
You may leave us to practice our introspection intrinsically. We shall
not interfere in your affairs and you consistently shall not dig into
ours in return. The so-called liberty proponents have scarcely
recognised our right not to abide by the United States Constitutional
regulations. During Trump's ardently damnable rallies, white supremacy
protagonists chant and spat in concordance to his detrimentally
divisive sentiment. The conception of forcefully imposing America's
perspective of liberty has to be persistently tossed out. Americanism
is respected in its region, as long as we are not compelled to abide
by its principles. If your country is tolerant with you having
whatever amount of alcohol and illicit wedlock in high school, that
should not be at any manner brought to here. It is fine for you to
have sex at any rate out of marital status, to bear arms in civil
platforms, to just do whatever you want. Even if we sternly dissent
with your stance of practicing liberty, we still aren't suppose to be
judgmental of your chosen path of living. If I travelled to the United
States, I should comply to be governed by its federal law. If I do not
want this, I should have not went there in the first place, simple as
that. Some years ago, when France banned Hijab to be wore at schools
and government buildings, as many Muslims opposed this decision, I
said in one of my talks at the Mosque when someone asked me about
this, I do not like it, but it's their own country and we should
respect them governing it, legislating the manner they deem
appropriate, even though we might be disadvantaged. So simply, do not
judge me, do not desecrate my sacred tenets and respect my privacy.
Your freedom's space ends where's mine begins. If we mutually comply
to this basic and fair rule, neither one will ever be disappointed.
Thank you for reading, Mustafa
On 10/5/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
He's talking about a particular Islamic sect. The part about women
drivers is definitely true in Saudi Arabia. But the other practices
are intrinsic in the way certain people observe Islam. This is
similar to Judaism in that there are different branches of Judaism.
The Orthodox branch is the most extreme, but it can also be divided
into various sects which are even more extreme then Modern Orthodoxy.
So when we start going into the particulars, we're bound to make
errors. I just finished reading the memoir of a Jewish woman who left
the Modern Orthodox branch and is attempting to describe her new,
individual way of relating to the Jewish religion. Reading about what
she left, the absolute insanity of the incredible number of rules
that govern every bit of life when you are Orthodox, reminded me of how naïve
we are when we consider people who are members of these extremist groups.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 8:01 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Bob Hachey <bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Allegations and moral bleak
Not to mitigate the oppressive conditions for women in Saudi Arabia,
but I think you are attributing some practices that Pakistan and
SubSaharan Africa are known for to Saudi Arabia.
On 10/4/2018 7:00 AM, Bob Hachey wrote:
Hi Mostafa and all,
The US certainly does not hold a monopoly when it comes to misogyny
and the subjugation of women. For example, let's take a look at one
of the shrines of Islam, the city of Mecca. Mecca is located in
Saudi Arabia where women gain the right to drive a car only a few
short months ago. The Saudis had a horrible history when it comes to
treatment of women. Women need permission from a husband or other
male relative to obtain employment, an apartment or a bank account.
Some Saudis practice the horrible tradition of female genital
mutilation. Also, when women are raped, some men will do what's
known as aan "honor killing." The idea is that the victim has
somehow dishonored her family and by her death, that dishonor is dissolved.
I'll take life as a woman every day over life as a woman in Saudi Arabia.
This is not to excuse the way women are treated here in America. The
point here is that many religions and traditions throughout the
world treat women badly.
Bob Hachey
