Roger,
Although we've come to similar conclusions regarding the existence, or
lack thereof, of God, we traveled on different roads.
For whatever reason, unknown to a small boy, I liked the idea of
Fairies, Goblins, Angels, and Baby Jesus. But even though I
participated in grade school plays at Christmas Time, usually playing
a shepherd or a wise man, I did not really believe my Sunday School
lessons anymore than I believed in Peter Rabbit. I grew to young
adulthood attending church from time to time, especially once I
stumbled into the young women in the Methodist Youth Fellowship, but
could never say that my activities were more than superficial. Even
the several times I was Baptized.
At 25 years of age, my first wife and I became involved in a different
sort of church group. From my indifferent point of view, I decided to
find out exactly what it was all about. The only way I could
experience the "Feeling" of religion, was to throw myself into it. So
I did. I've said in the past that I was a Christian for ten years.
Well, in truth, I left the Church after ten years, but I had left my
Belief in anything akin to Faith in God, behind me about 3 years
earlier. So, for at least seven years I searched for God. And I need
to say that I was totally sincere, never flip as it sometimes appears
that I am, today. God managed to avoid me during this time. True, I
personally witnessed some very unexplained phenomena which, at the
time I assigned to God's hand. But since there was no connection to
the life around me, I am now convinced that they are simply
unexplained events of an odd nature. Since I also believe that there
is much more going on around us, than our limited senses can observe,
there are probably dozens of explanations of which we can never know.
Anyway, I've satisfied myself, for myself, that God is the creation of
Man's need to make some sort of sense out of this amazing universe.
At various times Humans have imagined multiple Gods. Some believe
that there is Spirit in everything. Since none of it can be proved,
it becomes unimportant to me. Still, I like to dream of Beings, from
Somewhere Else, coming to Earth to rescue us. Maybe. But not really.
So I'm an Agnostic. I understand much more about religion than I
would have understood had I never thrown myself into it.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/17/17, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Ignorant atheist just might be the proper label for me when I was a
childhood atheist. Let's face it, ignorance is a prominent
characteristic of children. That's why we make them go to school.
Somehow I knew that religion was hogwash ever since I first started
hearing about it when I started to school, but it did not concern me. I
didn't have a defense for atheism and I had no criticism of religion. It
was that annoying schoolmate who kept badgering me about god in the
seventh grade who changed everything for me. When he flat out asked me
if I was an atheist I said no. But then I was faced with the question of
if I was not an atheist then what was I. In order to come up with an
answer I had to think about it. That started the evaporation of my
ignorance in that area of thought.
On 9/17/2017 11:00 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
"indifferent, ignorant atheist"? Isn't that the same as an
Agnostic?(smile)
I must admit that I do not want to spend gobs of time defending my
current posture as an indifferent, ignorant Agnostic, because I might
begin sounding as if I were proud of it. Nothing could be further
from the truth...whatever *that is.
While I agree with Roger...and you, that there is no God, the fact
is...in my ignorant, indifferent opinion, it does not matter. We are
here, by whatever reason, or lack of reason. Does the tomato plant
question how it got into the hothouse? Tomato plants have no
conception of the world outside their immediate plot. They might
think...if thinking is possible, that they are living in the perfect
place, made just for them. And they can prove it because they exist.
But tomato plants are much wiser than their Human friends. They keep
quiet, simply accepting that which is beyond their comprehension,
because they know...and I've been in contact with them...that it does
not matter in so far as their being alive and thriving.
If a goat wanders into the hothouse and tries chomping on one of the
tomato plants, the plants do not dream up some reason that some
imaginary God has decided to punish them because of their indifference
toward Him. There is no "moving in mysterious ways".
We conceited Humans believe that just because we learned to talk and
to write, that we are superior to tomato plants. Indeed, we believe
that we are superior to all life. Therefor we must be able to
understand how this great hothouse came into being. And when we can't
really grasp the enormity of it, we tell one another, "God created it
for us". And we stare into the blackness of the universe, which we
named in order to refer to it, rather than having to say, "the out
there", and we see little lights. Since we have not a single idea of
what they are, we call them "Angels". We feel the heat of our Sun and
we see it rise and fall each day, so we know that the Sun and the Moon
travel around the Earth. Our Earth is the center of the universe.
And it is flat, because we can see out to the edge.
Rather than admitting our ignorance, we Humans decide that there are
other places where super human Gods live. These Beings behave like
naughty Humans, only with super powers. Finally we become civilized
to the point of rolling all Gods into one Big Papa, All Mighty, All
Powerful, All Knowing God.
The proof, for most folk is the fact that our "hothouse" is made just
right for us. Forget the regular movement of the very ground we walk
on, or the hot lava spewed from deep within our "perfect" hothouse.
Forget the mighty winds or the failure of the rains, or the sweeping
fires. We close our minds and believe that some loving God made our
perfect world where life survives by cannibalizing life. A perfect
world where the strong survive and rule the weak. A world where God
allows slavery, and allows Men to dominate Women. On and on it goes.
If I truly cared, I'd say that all the "evidence', circumstantial as
it is, points to there being No God. But would that make a difference
in this place we call Mother Earth, or in this "perfect universe",
where the stars are rushing away from one another into something we
call "Space", to a destiny we will never know?
My frustration, if I have one, is that I'll never have the answers.
My Christian friends are content to believe that after they die, God
or Jesus will reveal all to them. But no one has ever returned,
despite Sylvia Brown, no one has ever come back to tell us if my
friends are right, or if I am.
But so what. Whether or not, this Hothouse works for us. And it will
continue working, unless we continue destroying it with our
thoughtless greed.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/16/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well Carl,
I consider myself to be an atheist because it seems pretty clear that
God,
or at least the God that everyone talks about or writes about, is a
fantasy
in the brains of human beings. But I'm also indifferent to that fact
which
means that it isn't important to me one way or the other, what other
people
believe. And it's obvious to me that I don't understand the nature of
things
or the cosmos or the laws of physics or what existence is or why I'm
here,
or what the true nature of everything is. So perhaps I should describe
myself as an indifferent, ignorant atheist.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 5:02 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Agnosticism Again, was Re: Re: On the
list,
conversations turning into duels
Roger,
Perhaps there is a better word for where my head is currently centered.
Agnostic is my choice because it best says what I am trying to put
across.
And that is Indifference! In my life, God plays no role. Neither does
Huckleberry Finn or the Wizard of Oz. Although when I read Tom Sawyer,
I
had a boyish crush on Becky Thatcher. And in National Velvet I ate my
heart
out over Elizabeth Taylor.
There are many things around me that I am indifferent to. There are
many
that I do not think really exist. But if a young Elizabeth Taylor came
riding down the road, I would quickly become a Believer.
In my personal thinking, an Atheist is a person who has made a firm
decision
that God does not exist. But then, is imagination real? Can we prove
that
our imagination comes from within, or perhaps is really that proof of
God's
existence that Atheists so boldly announce does not exist? As they say
in
that imaginary movie, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."
I've mentioned before that i gave up worrying about most labels. If
someone
cares to call me an Atheist instead of an Agnostic, so be it!
I like the word Agnostic...right or wrong. In my life I have encountered
a
number of strange occurrences. When I was a Christian, I assigned them
to
be signs from God. But in the light of day, my day, I could tell that
they
had no Godly meaning. Random occurrences was what they were.
But none of it matters beyond the fact that so long as we Humans need
some
All Powerful Father to guide and protect us, we will never stand on our
own
two feet. We will never take responsibility for our actions. We will
never
admit that there is more that we do not know about the Universe in which
we
live, than that which we do know. Yet, if someone actually had a photo
or a
recording of God, I would not go about trying to deny Him. But I would
have
a great quantity of questions...mostly regarding His sanity.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/16/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
As long as you are more interested in my ideas than the articles I
post I think I will take that as an opportunity to ask another
challenging question about agnosticism. This occurred to me just after
the exchange on proving negatives wound down and I have been waiting
for the discussion to turn in that direction again so that I could
make this point. But since it wasn't turning that direction right now
and since I wanted to say this anyway I will take it that you want to
hear my ideas as an invitation. If you are an agnostic because you
cannot prove the negative that god does not exist then are you an
agnostic
about fairies?
Are you an agnostic about unicorns? Are you an agnostic about
leprechauns? How about fictional characters? When you read a novel are
you an agnostic about all the characters in that novel? Are you a Tom
Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn agnostic? Are you a Frodo Baggins agnostic
or a Gandalf the wizard agnostic? If there are any of these things
that you can just say about them that you don't believe that they
exist then how do you decide what to be agnostic about and what to just
not believe in?
On 9/16/2017 11:02 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Here Here, Miriam!
Well said. As one who sometimes crosses the line...or trips on it,
I'll try to stay on the side of conversation. I, too, am interested
in exchanging ideas.
What I say next is in no way meant to defend either Roger or Bonnie,
they are both capable of doing so on their own behalf. But I do want
to say that I have great respect for Roger's opinions. While I often
read some of his posted articles, I am more interested in his own
thoughts.
And my dear friend, Bonnie. I think I first met Bonnie back in
another life, in down town Seattle, when Tony, her late husband, was
selling K Pro computers in a small office somewhere in the bowels of
the City. When Cathy and I moved to Quilcene, there in nearby Port
Townsend was Bonnie and Tony, working hard in their small business,
which, as I recall, included a bakery, a computer store and a UPS
store...I think. But that was nearly a quarter of a century back.
Tony, a Blinded Veteran, who was also a diabetic, along with Bonnie,
had gathered a small group of blind diabetics into a support group in
Port Townsend. Although I am neither diabetic or a veteran, Cathy
and I were invited to join in. That was in 1995. The next Fall, at
our Washington Council of the Blind state convention, we submitted a
request for membership. And so, with Tony as our chapter president,
Jefferson County Council of the Blind was born.
After Tony's death, Bonnie continued to attend our monthly meetings
and offered her skill as an O&M teacher, for anyone in need. The
state had no O&M person on the entire Olympic Peninsula. A few years
ago, Bonnie's work moved her into Clallam County, and kept her busy
on the days our group met. Although Bonnie and I see the world
through very different eyes, we are friends. At least the last time
I checked. I can only hope that my differences are as important to
her as hers are to me.
And I hope Bonnie is okay with my remembrances, since I failed to ask
her if I could take her hand and wander a bit in the past.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/16/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It would be wonderful if our conversations could stay at the level
of the interchange of ideas and experiences and gentle statements of
disagreement with each other from time to time. That is, I think,
the purpose of discussion on email lists. Unfortunately, some people
use these email lists as a means to express their aggressive
tendencies. When they do so, I suspect that they are unaware of the
motive behind the behavior. But debate can easily turn into
bullying. Taking on the role of instructor toward another person
when that person never asked for instruction is another way that
this happens. Sometimes, people just snipe at other people or make
unpleasant comments about something they've posted, as a personal
putdown.
People say things that I doubt they'd say if we were all together in
a room, sipping wine and eating snacks. It seems to me that
especially at this time of real danger for freedom, democracy, and
the continuation of life on earth, we should be using this wonderful
means of communication at our disposal to treasure each other, to
nurture and support each other, and to let go of our anger and
disapproval when people say things with which we disagree.
Miriam
