Roger,
Perhaps there is a better word for where my head is currently
centered. Agnostic is my choice because it best says what I am trying
to put across. And that is Indifference! In my life, God plays no
role. Neither does Huckleberry Finn or the Wizard of Oz. Although
when I read Tom Sawyer, I had a boyish crush on Becky Thatcher. And
in National Velvet I ate my heart out over Elizabeth Taylor.
There are many things around me that I am indifferent to. There are
many that I do not think really exist. But if a young Elizabeth
Taylor came riding down the road, I would quickly become a Believer.
In my personal thinking, an Atheist is a person who has made a firm
decision that God does not exist. But then, is imagination real? Can
we prove that our imagination comes from within, or perhaps is really
that proof of God's existence that Atheists so boldly announce does
not exist? As they say in that imaginary movie, "Frankly my dear, I
don't give a damn."
I've mentioned before that i gave up worrying about most labels. If
someone cares to call me an Atheist instead of an Agnostic, so be it!
I like the word Agnostic...right or wrong. In my life I have
encountered a number of strange occurrences. When I was a Christian,
I assigned them to be signs from God. But in the light of day, my
day, I could tell that they had no Godly meaning. Random occurrences
was what they were.
But none of it matters beyond the fact that so long as we Humans need
some All Powerful Father to guide and protect us, we will never stand
on our own two feet. We will never take responsibility for our
actions. We will never admit that there is more that we do not know
about the Universe in which we live, than that which we do know. Yet,
if someone actually had a photo or a recording of God, I would not go
about trying to deny Him. But I would have a great quantity of
questions...mostly regarding His sanity.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/16/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
As long as you are more interested in my ideas than the articles I post
I think I will take that as an opportunity to ask another challenging
question about agnosticism. This occurred to me just after the exchange
on proving negatives wound down and I have been waiting for the
discussion to turn in that direction again so that I could make this
point. But since it wasn't turning that direction right now and since I
wanted to say this anyway I will take it that you want to hear my ideas
as an invitation. If you are an agnostic because you cannot prove the
negative that god does not exist then are you an agnostic about fairies?
Are you an agnostic about unicorns? Are you an agnostic about
leprechauns? How about fictional characters? When you read a novel are
you an agnostic about all the characters in that novel? Are you a Tom
Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn agnostic? Are you a Frodo Baggins agnostic or
a Gandalf the wizard agnostic? If there are any of these things that you
can just say about them that you don't believe that they exist then how
do you decide what to be agnostic about and what to just not believe in?
On 9/16/2017 11:02 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Here Here, Miriam!
Well said. As one who sometimes crosses the line...or trips on it,
I'll try to stay on the side of conversation. I, too, am interested
in exchanging ideas.
What I say next is in no way meant to defend either Roger or Bonnie,
they are both capable of doing so on their own behalf. But I do want
to say that I have great respect for Roger's opinions. While I often
read some of his posted articles, I am more interested in his own
thoughts.
And my dear friend, Bonnie. I think I first met Bonnie back in
another life, in down town Seattle, when Tony, her late husband, was
selling K Pro computers in a small office somewhere in the bowels of
the City. When Cathy and I moved to Quilcene, there in nearby Port
Townsend was Bonnie and Tony, working hard in their small business,
which, as I recall, included a bakery, a computer store and a UPS
store...I think. But that was nearly a quarter of a century back.
Tony, a Blinded Veteran, who was also a diabetic, along with Bonnie,
had gathered a small group of blind diabetics into a support group in
Port Townsend. Although I am neither diabetic or a veteran, Cathy and
I were invited to join in. That was in 1995. The next Fall, at our
Washington Council of the Blind state convention, we submitted a
request for membership. And so, with Tony as our chapter president,
Jefferson County Council of the Blind was born.
After Tony's death, Bonnie continued to attend our monthly meetings
and offered her skill as an O&M teacher, for anyone in need. The
state had no O&M person on the entire Olympic Peninsula. A few years
ago, Bonnie's work moved her into Clallam County, and kept her busy on
the days our group met. Although Bonnie and I see the world through
very different eyes, we are friends. At least the last time I
checked. I can only hope that my differences are as important to her
as hers are to me.
And I hope Bonnie is okay with my remembrances, since I failed to ask
her if I could take her hand and wander a bit in the past.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/16/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It would be wonderful if our conversations could stay at the level of
the
interchange of ideas and experiences and gentle statements of
disagreement
with each other from time to time. That is, I think, the purpose of
discussion on email lists. Unfortunately, some people use these email
lists
as a means to express their aggressive tendencies. When they do so, I
suspect that they are unaware of the motive behind the behavior. But
debate
can easily turn into bullying. Taking on the role of instructor toward
another person when that person never asked for instruction is another
way
that this happens. Sometimes, people just snipe at other people or make
unpleasant comments about something they've posted, as a personal
putdown.
People say things that I doubt they'd say if we were all together in a
room,
sipping wine and eating snacks. It seems to me that especially at this
time
of real danger for freedom, democracy, and the continuation of life on
earth, we should be using this wonderful means of communication at our
disposal to treasure each other, to nurture and support each other, and
to
let go of our anger and disapproval when people say things with which we
disagree.
Miriam
