As to who was there first, it was the Jews before they became Arabs. DNA
analyses have been done for both the Palestinian population and the
native Jewish populations and the comparison show them to be the same
people. That is, if it was in any other place in the world the DNA match
is close enough that it would be a comparison of people in the same
ethnic group. Obviously, at some time in history, the Palestinians
converted to Islam and took up the Arabic language. That probably
happened in the first expansion of Islam out of the Arabic peninsula.
The native Jews must be the ones who did not convert. Notice that I am
purposely using the word native. Other Jews have immigrated into
Palestine since the founding of Israel and these Jews from various parts
of the world have little in common with one another other than religion
and sometimes not even that. That is, secular Jews were offered the
opportunity to immigrate as well as the religious Jews. If you are
talking about who was there first then there is no room to argue. These
not native Jews immigrated and settled since 1949 and the record is very
clear about that. They did not even speak the same languages. Hebrew was
revived so that they could communicate with each other. And, by the way,
the Palestinian Arabs and the Palestinian Jews, that is, the native
Jews, were getting along just fine until the Arabs were thrown out of
their homes to make room for all the foreign settlers.
___
Robert G. Ingersoll
“Progress is born of doubt and inquiry. The Church never doubts, never
inquires. To doubt is heresy, to inquire is to admit that you do not know—the
Church does neither.”
― Robert G. Ingersoll,
On 9/16/2020 11:56 PM, Andy Baracco wrote:
Well, i don't want to get into a pissing contest about who was there first, etc.
All I will say is that this part of the world has been fought over, conquered, and reconquered for thousands of years. Why! I don't know, but that is the way it has been.
In fact, being italian, I could probably make a case for the italians, being that Palestine was part of the Roman empire for hundreds of years.
All I'm trying to say is that the issue is complicated, and that the approaches previously taken have not worked. I do agree with You and Miriam that the Palestinians have to be a part of a successful solution to bring peace to the area.
Andy
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "blind-democracy" <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 8:36 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim Crow States of the Middle East
The amount of influence the PLO has is variable and its influence used to be more than it is now. However, it has had a good deal of influence. You asked, though, if the Palestinians would go for a secular Palestine in which Jews, Muslims and others can live on an equal footing with each other as if there is something about being Palestinian that requires one to reject equality. Not only is that an expression of plain bigotry, but it ignores that very large organizations and very large portions of the Palestinian population have been working for that very thing for years and decades. The stereotype you offer of Palestinians as being rabid war mongers as a description of their fightback against being expelled from their homes, having violence perpetrated against them and being legally relegated to second and third class citizenship when they are allowed citizenship in their own country at all is disgusting at the very least. It is hard to describe such an attitude as anything but right-wing hateful bigotry.
___
Robert G. Ingersoll
“Progress is born of doubt and inquiry. The Church never doubts, never inquires. To doubt is heresy, to inquire is to admit that you do not know—the Church does neither.”
― Robert G. Ingersoll,
On 9/16/2020 10:55 PM, Andy Baracco wrote:
These days, in the 21st century, just how much influence does the PLO have among the Palestinians?
Andy
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "blind-democracy" <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 7:41 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim Crow States of the Middle East
Would the Palestinians go for it? That has been the Palestine Liberation Organization's positions from its founding. Have you never paid attention to the PLO's positions on anything?
___
Robert G. Ingersoll
“Progress is born of doubt and inquiry. The Church never doubts, never inquires. To doubt is heresy, to inquire is to admit that you do not know—the Church does neither.”
― Robert G. Ingersoll,
On 9/16/2020 10:05 PM, Andy Baracco wrote:
That would be the desirable outcome, but would the palestinians go for it? Also, there are many Israelis that may have a problem with that.
Andy
----- Original Message ----- From: "Miriam Vieni" <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 6:27 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim Crow States of the Middle East
Andy,
First of all, you probably are unaware of this, but Hamas exists because
Israel encouraged its development and second of all, it has two arms. Its
political arm accepts the existence of Israel. But additionally, some of the
Jewish Americans who were strong supporters of Israel, now agree that what
is needed is one secular state with equality for all citizens, regardless of
whether they are Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, inclusive of all ethnicities.
Certainly, its people may choose to call it Israel, if they wish. If I
weren't so old that I keep forgetting names, I'd tell you, at this point,
the name of the latest person, very well known who recently made a stir by
writing an op ed, I believe in the New York Times, stating is support for a
one state solution with equality for all. Another fact of which you may be
unaware, most Palestinians are not active Hamas supporters. Israel was very
canny and cynical in encouraging the fragmentation of the Palestinian
leadership. The majority of Palestinians are just trying to survive on a day
to day basis. For a time, before someone who was helping me with the
computer, accidentally did something which caused me to get tossed off it, I
was on an email list run out of Israel, by a woman in her eighties who was
a member of an Israeli peace group. There were Israelis, Israeli
journalists, Palestinians, and Americans on that list. They posted stuff
about day to day life for Palestinians. There's so much information that
most people here don't know about. I'll forward some of the email digests
from websites. But if you're going to feel like you need to argue with any
article I post, even when your arguments are based on the misinformation
that is spread by Israeli interests, then you may not be open to what's on
the websites. There's a book on Bookshare called The Ethnic Cleansing of
Palestine, written by an Israeli historian. He actdually has several books
that are on Bookshare. There's Miko Peled, an Israeli American, son of an
Israeli General, whose articles are all over the place and who has a
podcast. There's Max Blumenthal whose book Goliath, (can't remember the
whole title), describes Israel, and who is the son of Sidney Blumenthal, an
Israel supporter. The subject is so complex because so much of what has
been happening in the Middle East, including the 9/11 attacks, is
inextricably tied to the US support of Israel. One other thing you should
know. All of us saw Israel as a gift to Jewish people as recompense for what
the Nazis did to them. But the Zionists were planning to take over all of
Palestine and turn it into a Jewish homeland before Hitler came to power.
This is documented. I've read historical articles describing Ben Gurion's
writings on the subject in the early 1930's. I do remember thinking at one
time that the Palestinians should just accept the fact that they'd lost and
Israel had one, and they should just turn the page. But here I am, an old
blind, hearing impaired, physically disabled woman, who is physically
dependent on other people for most things, and I cannot accept it when they
treat me like a non person, when what I say doesn't count, when people don't
feel that they need to ask me what I want or need or think. So I can imagine
what it's like for a people, with individuals of varying degrees of
education, skills, intelligence, people with different religions, and a
cultural tradition, are treated by the whole world as if they count for
nothing because a group of Zionists want their land. I'm forwarding an
Analysis.News podcast to the list. Phyllis Dennis, the person being
interviewed, is Jewish.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Andy Baracco
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 7:33 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim Crow
States of the Middle East
Well, the state of israel isn't going anywhere, so we need to see what the
palestinians are willing to accept short of the destruction of Israel. one
problem is the influence and control of Hamas, which is nothing more than a
gang of thugs and a client of Iran. I think that the thrust of the accord
is not so much the issue of the Palestinians, but Iran, who is really the
bad guy in the area.
Andy
----- Original Message ----- From: "Miriam Vieni" <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 4:16 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim Crow
States of the Middle East
Andy,
I'm Jewish and I remember when Israel was formed. And for many years, I
was
a supporter of Israel. But like many people, I didn't know the entire
history, nor could I be objective because such terrible things had
happened
to my people. I thought they deserved a refuge. I bought all of the lies
that were fed to us. But even at the age of ten, which is the age I was
when
the State of Israel was proclaimed, I knew that there was something wrong
as
my relatives sat in my parents living room and rationalized taking the
homes
and land away from the Palestinian people who had been living on it for
centuries. I remember the excuses they gave because what they said, didn't
sound right. They said that the Palestinians could just move to other Arab
countries who would take them in. They said that it was OK for Jews to
take
their land because Jews would do more with it, would be better farmers,
were
more educated and intelligent, were more deserving. Just think about that
for a little while. Think about the fact that 800,000 people were removed
from their homes, a huge percentage of whom were murdered, and the rest
were
sent to crowded ill equipped refugee camps in other countries where
they've
been ever since. And the Palestinians who remained in Israel proper , the
ones who were allowed citizenship, were literally, second class citizens,
because they weren't Jewish and, therefore, they didn't have the same
legal
rights as Jews. And the ones who lived on the West Bank were an occupied
people with no rights at all who, little by little, have had all of their
land and their homes and their rights stolen. When I was in graduate
school,
I was planning to visit Israel with my cousin. I was a naive and fervent
supporter. The only reason I didn't go, had something to do with the
nastiness of my advisor in graduate school who said that if I had the
money
for a trip to Israel, I didn't need my fellowship for the second year of
graduate study. Back then, everything that I knew came from radio, TV,
movies, novels, and the Jewish establishment. That was in 1960. By the
time
the 1990's came along, I was in favor of a two state solution. I'd gotten
to
know more about Israel from some of my adoption clients who were Israeli
Americans and from one woman who was not Israeli, but had lived in Israel
for a time. I learned that Israel was not the Democratic country that I
thought it was, but a Theocracy where Jews who were not white and
European,
were treated very badly and Palestinians were despised. But I still didn't
know all of the facts, not until I was able to read books from Bookshare
and
hear what was happening in Gaza on democracy Now, and read articles by
people who weren't featured in The New York Times. And I'll add this
question for you to just think about. If your home was stolen and you were
forced to live in a refugee camp and your accomplishments and traditions
were despised, what would your response be? Would you respond like Jesus
or
Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. or would you be tempted to fight back?
After the fighting back, for about two years, the people who have been
systematically starved and bombed to death in Gaza have been peacefully
demonstrating in an area as close as they can get to the border that
separates them from Israel. And During all of these peaceful protests
which
haven't been reported in our press, they have been physically attacked,
killed, or seriously maimed by Israeli soldiers who claim to be "the most
moral army in the world.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Andy Baracco
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 6:17 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim
Crow
States of the Middle East
You can't negotiate for peace with people who don't want peace. The
Palestinians want only one thing, the destruction of Israel, and nothing
less. The accord will start the process of isolating the Palestinians
because it will cut off their funding sources. It will also ultimately
weaken Iran's influence in the area.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miriam Vieni" <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 2:49 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim Crow
States of the Middle East
Abraham Accords: The War Pact Among Jim Crow States of the Middle Eaststealth. .
JUAN COLE
09/16/2020
Ann Arbor (Informed Comment) - The Middle Eastern parties to the
"Abraham Accords," Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, and Israel, did
not make peace by signing them. The small Arab Gulf principalities
have long had behind-the-scenes relations with Israel and Israeli
firms. They weren't at war with the Israelis. As members of the Arab
League, they did in public observe some elements of that
organization's embargo, such that they did not have diplomatic
relations with Tel Aviv (that is where their embassies will be). But
Egypt is a member of the Arab League (after having been expelled for a
few years from 1979) despite having a peace treaty with Israel, and so
is Jordan. So adherence to the embargo is not anyway universal or a
requirement for membership.
Embed from Getty Images
(Photo by Alex Wong/Getty Images).
The state-owned Dubai Ports company admitted as far back as 2006 that
it dealt with Israeli firms.
The accords are in fact a war agreement among three heavily armed
Middle East states characterized by a version of Jim Crow society.
The Israeli government is militarily Occupying five million stateless
and rights-less Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. The government
of PM Binyamin Netanyahu is determined forever to keep them stateless,
and every day encroaches further on their land, property and human
rights.
The Emirates is a tiny country of about a million citizens and 8
million guest workers with no political rights. It is run as seven
absolute monarchies with oil-rich Abu Dhabi primus inter pares, with
its crown prince Mohammed Bin Zayed al-Nahayan in charge. Bin Zayed
has developed ambitions of regional hegemony. He has pursued a brutal
and ruinous war in Yemen, where his campaigns and those of his Saudi
and other allies have displaced millions of poor Yemenis and driven
much of the country to food insecurity and the brink of starvation.
The United Nations has accused the UAE of war crimes in Yemen. The UAE
also has wider ambitions throughout the Arabian Sea and Red Sea
regions, in Eritrea even as far away as Libya.
I wrote last month,
"Matthew Lee of AP reports, Trump broached the sale of Lockheed Martin
F-35
Lightning II Stealth fighter jets to the UAE. Trump said, "They have
the money and they would like to order quite a few F-35s. It's the
greatest fighter jet in the world, as you know, by stealth, totally
They'd
like to buy F-35s, we'll see what happens. It's under review, but they
made a great advance in peace in the Middle East . . . One F-35
retails for roughly $100 million. BBC Monitoring translates a report
in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot that alleges a high UAE
official told its correspondent that "The aircraft are part of the
deal." That is, an arms deal was part of the agreement between the two
countries, and that the US would sell Abu Dhabi F-35s was openly
specified.' So the United Arab Emirates made the treaty with Israel
not to bring peace to the Middle East but to ensure that it is armed
to the teeth.
Despite all the talk about allying against Iran, the ambitions of the
UAE are for military expansionism to the west and south. It already
has a US security umbrella against Iran.
Mohammed Bin Zayed, by the way, did not come for the signing, possibly
because the FBI wants to question him about his suspected role in
campaign interference on behalf of Trump in 2016 and his secret visit
to Trump Tower in December of that year when Obama was still
president.
Bahrain is also a small country, a set of islands, with a population
of about 1.5 million. Roughly two-thirds are Shiites. The Sunni
monarchy of Bahrain thusly rules over a Shiite majority that is
systematically discriminated against and deprived of basic human
rights. The government crushed the democracy movement of 2011
ruthlessly, and Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates sent in
small troop contingents to help. The major vehicle of majority Shiite
political aspiration, the Wefaq Party, has been dissolved and its
leader sentenced to life imprisonment for thought crimes.
