While I enjoy a good lively discussion, I don't go so far as to
attempt to prove the other people wrong. I simply have my constantly
changing opinions, and I express them shamelessly. When the Jehovah
Witness' come trudging out our quarter mile driveway I receive them
politely. Always in pairs, I smile and give them my name and ask
theirs. They always tell me who they are, and I point down the road
and ask, "Are you Jehovah Witness'? My good neighbors are probably
members of your church". And they always know Russ and Darlene, and
we talk a bit about what good and decent people they are. Then I say,
I'm an Agnostic, and I have a very clear picture of what that means
and why I am. But I thank you for dropping by." And without inviting
them in, I begin closing the door.
On the telephone it is a different matter. This telephone
solicitation work is a job I would never take. I'd rob little old
crippled ladies before I'd do cold calling. From time to time a call
slips past our phone voice announcer, and I lift the hand unit and say
a pleasant "Hello". The very instant that I realize that this is a
sales pitch, I say, "better luck with your next call," and I hang up.
Why take up their time, or mine.
In my world I have the choice of whom I allow in, and whom I exclude.
I believe what I currently believe, and reject that which I, in my own
little world, determine to be silly or trouble.
Long ago I learned that I am not going to be so clever and so absolute
that I can superimpose my beliefs and opinions onto others. So why
waste the effort? Well, for one thing it helps me think. Mostafa and
his dogmatic clutching to his Faith causes me to explore why people
become so rigid and unmoving, even when all evidence tells them that
they are on the wrong road.
What is it, so deeply embedded in us that allows us to look at all the
imperfections on Earth and, to our limited ability, the universe about
us, and call it a perfect creation by a perfect Being? And to look
upon Nature and see that it exists because it lives upon the dead.
Survival depends upon the fittest. The small are devoured by the
bigger and they, in turn, by the even bigger...or smarter. A
beautiful climbing vine is actually killing its host tree. And folks
look about and say, "Look at the beauty God has provided us". So it
is pointless for me to try to change the attitudes of these people,
anymore than it is possible to make a young headstrong Muslim blind
man "see" the real world. Mostafa, like most of the folks on this
list, is a victim. I can certainly extend my compassion to him, but I
cannot give even a fraction of an inch to his belief that we are under
the spell of an invisible Being, who happens to be the true invisible
being, over all others, especially that imposter called God Almighty.
I would never take such a fantasy away, but I would never accept it.
In that, we are both equally stubborn.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/5/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes, religion is all about faith and emotion. That is exactly why using
logic exposes it as nonsense. When I point out Mustafa's logical
fallacies and ask him for evidence for his unsupported assertions I
really don't expect him to suddenly become logical and to provide
evidence. No defender of religion ever has. And if some actual evidence
was ever found for these irrational assertions then the religion would
at that instant cease to be religion. It would become scientific theory.
But when I keep asking Mustafa for the evidence and to use real logic
his inability to do so validates my position that he is simply spouting
absurdities. However, I am offering him the opportunity to convert me. I
remember being in a conversation more than twenty years ago in which a
woman was asserting her belief in ghosts. I, of course, reject such
claims. There was a man present who had not said anything, but finally
he revealed which side he was on by saying to me, "Roger, what does it
take to convince you?" Without any hesitation at all I said, "Logical
argument based on objective reality. What does it take to convince you."
He was obviously taken off guard. It was clear that he had not expected
that answer nor the question that I had included. He simply said, "I
don't know." Well the same thing that it would have taken to convince me
way back then is still what it takes to convince me now, logical
argument based on objective reality. If Mustafa can give me that then he
will have a convert. I'm not worried. I don't expect to be converting.
On 9/5/2017 5:22 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Upon reading the last few posts on Blind Democracy,
It's irrelevant to talk about logic and rationality when debating about
religion. Whatever reasons religious people give to support their
beliefs,
religion is all about faith and emotion. Religious faith meets deep
emotional needs. If you want to take away someone's religion, find a
substitute to meet those deep emotional needs.
Systems produce responses. Some of these are mild, and some are
disruptive.
But everything, including Socialism, comes out of an existing system.
Revolutions are limited by what they are reacting to.
Miriam
