[bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across pages
- From: "Rik James" <d28rik@xxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:06:58 -0600
I have followed this thread this week. And irregardless of the official
policy, I have taken Pratik's point about moving segments of sentences to be
a very good and valid one.
It has been a while since I had to cite references, but I did it for all my
papers in college and graduate school. And I see now the reasoning. When
you have to cite the page numbers of a source you need to cite them
precisely. And if you are using a Bookshare book which has been altered in
this way, your citation may be in error. Some professor could come down on
you and mark down your grade. And whose fault would that have been? Why
the scandalous volunteer who behind the scenes moved text. So, for me, I
agree with Pratik's point, and do not recommend moving parts of a sentence
to make a page end with a complete sentence. Then the researcher would be
able to correctly cite the reference of a sentence over the two pages, as it
is in the printed copy of the book. And that is important.
So I will now only put together the words broken up by a hyphen at the end
of a page, and not mess with the sentence.
But there are two situations where as a reader, I still would like not to
have my reading interrupted, and have to hunt and find the rest of the
sentence.
One, that of the case where a footnote exists at the bottom of the page. It
is not often that this happens, but when it does, it is pretty annoying.
Reading with speech is much different than reading with vision. The
sentence being broken up like that, just dropping off there, and with no
punctuation the speech just prattles on to the footnote. And you say to
yourself, hun? What? What happened, huh? Of course sometimes, it is true
we are reading and maybe just like daydreaming while the tv is rattling on
may not even realize what the heck happened. And while you can go back and
find your place, find the first half of the sentence, reread that, then go
forward to where the second half is, meanwhile you had to listen to blips of
the footnote to get there. If you were using vision you would just not even
half to look at the footnote. So that to me qualifies as somewhat annoying
and a distraction in the reading experience.
I don't know what to do not to spoil the citation reference. Perhaps it is
to move the footnote. As someone said earlier on this thread, often these
days books put all the footnotes at the end of a chapter. So I don't think
it should hurt to do that. I guess I would call this a judgement call. And
I would trust that the volunteer is taking this job very seriously and wants
the collection to have the best possible file for all the members to enjoy
and read.
The second point or notion I have, is that there are a lot of books that are
very unlikely to be used in any scholarly reference, and I don't think it
should be that dangerous to move text to allow for completion of a sentence.
But that is just me. Perhaps many romance novels and light book fare of
that sort do need to be able to be referenced. But I doubt it would be as
critical as some other types of books.
Now that many books only have a page number spoken between the end of a page
and beginning of the next makes it really not such a big deal to have a
sentence broken up. There are numerous books I have read from Bookshare's
collection where the whole header text is in there along with the page
number and I found that distracting, and why I thought moving text for
complete sentences was a good idea. So if now you are reading along and it
332 says that you are 333 indeed doing 334 the best you can, see what I
mean, it should not be too bad, huh? No really, not bad. In fact, it tells
you what page you are on, and that is not too bad a thing. Kind of like a
talking clock, or even an old fashioned cuckoo clock. Anyone have those
anymore?
Anyhow, the best point I think is that the care taken by the scanner &
submitter and of the validator all comes into play, and I applaud the
talents and efforts I see taken by these members and in the books I enjoy
from bookshare. It has indeed been a new revolution. I like being able to
stop on a word or sentence, and go listen to it again, even spell the word
out a letter at a time, or look at punctuation. That is something I was
never able to do with tapes, and can no longer do with vision. If I would
have learned Braille when I was much younger I could have perhaps been
reading like that with my fingers. But alas, though I know Braille some,
it takes me so long to read a sentence, let alone a page, my mind drifts
into some eddy pool and I have to read it again!
Sorry my message was so long. Hopefully it made some sense.
Thanks.
Rik
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Elizabeth and
Burton
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 5:35 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across pages
I find it interesting that John Glass, in his role as laison between staff
and volunteers, has apparently not posted anything regarding text and page
boundaries. Does this mean P. speaks for staff in this decision? If you
do, that is fine. I am puzzled and so am asking.
E.
At 03:04 AM 10/3/2006, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>If memory serves, Bookshare has provided no guidance on this
>matter. There is, of course, the possibility that I am forgetting and you
>are correct. My point about citations still remains. And, for that
>reason, I would still not move sentences around. Broken words, I
>understand, sentences, no. Irrespective of my example actually appearing
>at the beginning of the bookI only gave it because I recalled the
>sentencemy point still stands. Elizabeth, can you cite the specific
>Bookshare ruling on this?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Pratik
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[<mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@f
reelists.org]
>On Behalf Of Elizabeth and Burton
>Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:34 AM
>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across pages
>
>Cindy is giving one of a series of examples I can use to illustrate my
>point. The point is particularly relevant when dealing with footnotes at
>the bottom of pages. I have kept all the files in which I have made such
>changes, yes kept all of them. I can go back and cite examples. Thanks so
>much for official feedback P. and others.
>
>E.
>At 02:13 AM 10/3/2006, you wrote:
>
> >Smile. Pratik, I think you gave a poor
> >example--smile. What people seem to be saying, and I
> >didn't think was allowed, was ending the page with a
> >complete sentence rather than allowing it to be broken
> >and continue on the next page.
> >
> >As it happens, you quote what, if I remember
> >correctly, is the first sentence in the novel. But
> >what it it came toward the end of the page, and the
> >page ended with
> >
> >"it was the age of'
> >
> >and the next page began, "of foolishness."
> >
> >That rather spoils the rhythm. smile
> >
> >Grandma Cindy
> >
> >--- Pratik Patel <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > Consider breaking up the following sentence:
> > >
> > > It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,
> > > it was the age of
> > > wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the
> > > epoch of belief, it was
> > > the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of
> > > Light, it was the season of
> > > Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the
> > > winter of despair, we had
> > > everything before us, we had nothing before us, we
> > > were all going direct to
> > > Heaven, we were all going direct the other way-in
> > > short, the period was so
> > > far like the present period, that some of its
> > > noisiest authorities insisted
> > > on its being received, for good or for evil, in the
> > > superlative degree of
> > > comparison only.
> > >
> > >
> > > Many of Dickens' finest works contain such examples
> > > of huge sentences. You
> > > would grossly change the structure of books should
> > > you decide to make
> > > changes to sentences. Plus, you also need to
> > > ocnsider those individuals who
> > > may use our books for citation purposes. If a
> > > sentence is altered the page
> > > citation may become something other than what it
> > > might have been prior to
> > > the change.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
>
[<mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@fr
eelists.org]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Pratik Patel
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:22 AM
> > > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across
> > > pages
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > We should not engage in changing sentences to fit on
> > > one page or another
> > > even if the sentence happens to be broken up by a
> > > foot note. Hyphinated
> > > words are quite understandable.
> > >
> > > Pratik
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
>
[<mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@fr
eelists.org]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Silvara
> > > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:35 PM
> > > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across
> > > pages
> > >
> > > Hi Rick:
> > >
> > > Nothing wrong with spell checking in Word. That's
> > > what I used to do before
> > > K1000.
> > >
> > > Keep up the good work.
> > >
> > > ***
> > > Grace
> > >
> > > For scanning and validating tips
> > > check out
> > >
<http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/tl.asp>http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/tl.asp
> > >
> > > For ideas of books to scan check out:
> > > the No Book Left Behind AKA
> > > Reject list
> > >
>
<http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/reject.asp>http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/reject
asp
> > > Rescan List
> > >
>
<http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/rescan.asp>http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/rescan
asp
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rik James" <d28rik@xxxxxxx>
> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:35 PM
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across
> > > pages
> > >
> > >
> > > >> I personally would be happy if I can convince
> > > those who scan to spell
> > > > check. (wistful smile) How about getting them to
> > > run rank spelling? (hope
> > > > hope)
> > > >
> > > > If I can see a way to come up with six hundred
> > > smackers, and upgrade to
> > > > K-1000, I would be happy to run rank spelling.
> > > But for now, it is just a
> > > > fig tree of my imagination, and a hope. But I do
> > > now do a spell check
> > > > with
> > > > my Word program before submitting a book. Heck,
> > > why not.
> > > >
> > > > Rik
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
>
[<mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@fr
eelists.org]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Elizabeth and
> > > > Burton
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:57 AM
> > > > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across
> > > pages
> > > >
> > > > I personally would be happy if I can convince
> > > those who scan to spell
> > > > check. (wistful smile) How about getting them to
> > > run rank spelling? (hope
> > > > hope)
> > > >
> > > > E.
> > > > At 12:52 PM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>Thanks for mentioning this, E.
> > > >>
> > > >>I think it really does make a big difference not
> > > to have the sentences
> > > >>interrupted by the headers and page numbers. I
> > > too have been adjusting to
> > > >>see that the ends of pages end in complete
> > > sentences. I figure if I have
> > > > to
> > > >>look for the hyphenated words at the end of pages,
> > > I may as well make the
> > > >>page end with a complete sentence. And as you
> > > say, this is ESPECIALLY
> > > >>important when there are footnotes at the bottom
> > > of the page. A reader
> > > >>can
> > > >>really get lost when the text of the page gets
> > > interrupted by a bunch of
> > > >>sentences in footnotes.
> > > >>
> > > >>Although this is something we can do when
> > > validating, it would make me
> > > > happy
> > > >>as a clam if the person who scanned the book and
> > > submitted it took the
> > > >>time
> > > >>and care to do this.
> > > >>
> > > >>I am beginning to feel that scanning in batch mode
> > > creates a heck of a lot
> > > >>more work down the road than just doing the scan a
> > > page at a time, or 2 at
> > > > a
> > > >>time in 2 page mode with most books. And to at
> > > least spot check each
> > > >>paragraph of each page. Then if the scan is bad,
> > > you can just delete the
> > > >>page right then and there and do a re-scan. Happy
> > > as a clam all over
> > > > again.
> > > >>Time for a clam bake. Put on your Elvis Presley
> > > record, and pull out that
> > > >>old 1960's Elvis movie Clambake, . (smile) But
> > > who the heck really
> > > >>knows
> > > >>how happy a clam is anyway? (That could be a
> > > topic for Andy Rooney, huh?
> > > >>
> > > >>Rik
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>[<mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:bksvol-discuss-b
> ounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > > Behalf Of Elizabeth and
> > > >>Burton
> > > >>Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:36 AM
> > > >>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: words split across
> > > pages
> > > >>
> > > >>As a validator, I move words and sentence
> > > fragments so that sentences end
> > > >>on one page or begin on another. This is taking
> > > some liberty with the
> > > >>positioning of text though not with the text
> > > itself. I do this to make
> > > >>reading go more smoothly for both braille users
> > > and voice users. I find
> > > >>it
> > > >>particularly necessary to do this in cases where
> > > footnotes at the bottom
> > > >>of
> > > >>pages break up the flow.
> > > >>
> > > >>Hope this helps.
> > > >>
> > > >>E.
> > > >>
> > > >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
> > > to
> > > >>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
> > > subject line. To get a list
> > > >>of
> > > >>available commands, put the word 'help' by itself
> > > in the subject line.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
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