[bksvol-discuss] Re: question for member bookshare readers re tables of contents

  • From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:19:02 -0800 (PST)

I think the comment about page numbers at the top of the page referred to 
something else; the poster didn't realize we were talking only about page 
Numbers within tables of contents. smile

I delete end-of-line paragraph symbols carefully, but not individually.  One 
can highlight the paragraph, from first line to last line, being careful to 
exclude the final paragraph symbol.(you can stop the highlight with any word in 
the last line). Then do a replace paragraph symbol with a space The firsst time 
(or maybe two), you replace, and ach one will be replaced. After you've done, 
that you can do replace all. You'll be shown how many were replaced; the number 
depends on how many lines are in he paragraph. Be careful to say no if asked if 
you want to do the reat of the dcument or go back to the beginning. Thuis is a 
big timesasaver. If you've made a mistake and the whol document has become one 
long paragraph, you can click on it and go to edit and--what is it? delete or 
repalce or smethng?

I was delighted to learn that the converter closes extra spaces between 
paragraphs; not having to do that manually saves a lot of time. Putting an 
asterisk in an extra space that is intended to be between paragraphs or 
sections only takes a second  (although in some books, like one I'm proofing 
now, there are a lot of them.

Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and books-being-scanned 
list available at sites below

Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List

Books Being Scanned List: 

--- On Fri, 1/15/10, Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: question for member bookshare readers    re 
> tables of contents
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 11:49 AM
> Lynn, I'd follow the volunteer manual
> instructions for best results.  Yes, the converter
> supposedly does do some of the things that are still within
> those instructions. However, I've yet to get or see a
> specific list directly from Bookshare engineers on which
> ones are always done in the converter and are guaranteed to
> be retained and improved as the programming staff continues
> to evolve this tool.
> So, I choose to continue to do them myself until such a
> list is shared. I'd rather error on the side of doing what
> we as volunteers have found works.  smile.
> Judy s.
> Lynn Zelvin wrote:
> > OK. I am both relieved and confused by this answer. I
> guess it means I'll stop removing blank lines. . I was
> trying to make sure I only removed those which were just
> space between paragraphs and not those which might be
> intentional breaks, but if they're all going away anyway, I
> can stop thinking about it. Since the guidelines now really
> now say to read the whole book, it's no big deal to get rid
> of blank lines, it's just the extra attention to this. Line
> breaks within paragraphs, at least those we can be sure
> about, even doing search-replace 27 times, takes longer.
> > 
> > What confuses me more is what's a change we absolutely
> have to make for the books to convert properly. Like, this
> question of ellipses in tables of contents.. It sounded like
> bookshare volunteers were trying to set a standard, rather
> than whether the ellipses were something the that was needed
> for the book to be processed properly.  It sounded like
> volunteers had decided on page numbering at the top with
> blank lines before and after them rather than it being
> something needed  - will the automation work just as
> well if page numbers are at the bottom of the page with or
> without blank lines before them?  In the manual the
> checklist talks about standardizing the font and using 16
> point for chapter headings. So, I did this, using 14 point
> for minor headings within chapters. But it also seems to me
> that doing this removes font changes the author may have
> intended. There wasn't anything about this. Is there
> actually a font size that is used by the automation process?
> Or is that another volunteer agreement? Is bold text in
> daisy books just where bolding was used for emphasis in the
> original? is it added or removed in headers? Some of the
> minor headings in this book I'm working with now were in
> bold and a few were not and the difference didn't seem to be
> in meaning, so I bolded them all, figuring that occasionally
> the scanner just didn't pick up the difference. But really,
> it sounds like nothing there matters because it will just be
> removed or added. I guess, that if we're not putting in
> codes, I'd want to know which formatting indicators the
> automation process actually uses, whether it's font size or
> bolding or just shorter lines with blank lines before and
> after, or what, and if nothing we do for a specific type of
> item matters, I'd like to know that also and I'll not
> bother. I have a similar question about footnotes, but will
> put that in a different message since it's sort of a
> different question.
> > 
> > I wanted to think I could follow instructions without
> asking a million boring questions on this list, but now I
> feel really confused. I used to do formatting for braille,
> both literary and textbook formatting, and it felt much
> clearer and easier because the rules were detailed and
> specific. I think the work is faster and easier when the
> rules are clear. And I'd personally vote for the option to
> mark sidebars and captions and any other feature that will
> actually be used, like, any indications that will make final
> processing of tables work better, rather than having
> to  just leave them unclear. Certainly, if some books
> had features that others lacked, an end user would still
> benefit from having it when it's there.
> > 
> > Lynn
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > At 03:45 PM 1/14/2010, you wrote:
> >> Hi Lynn. Bookshare does automate a lot of things
> like page numbering, chapter indication, and removal of
> extra spaces and blank lines. Some volunteers are choosing
> to do things like delete blank lines by choice, not because
> they have to. It does make proofreading more comfortable for
> our sighted and Braille reading volunteers. Since I don't
> know how my proofreader will be working when I submit a
> book, I usually take a minute to do this step. However, I
> only do it because I can do so in less than 30 seconds. If
> it took much longer than that, I wouldn't bother since the
> Bookshare tool can do it during conversion. I definitely
> wouldn't do it if I had to do it manually, deleting line by
> line.
> >>  Bookshare's processer tool will number pages
> without page numbers. However, if a submitter submits a book
> with no page numbers, it can make proofreading and
> identifying missing pages more difficult. With no page
> numbers, you don't know for sure which pages to ask someone
> to scan for you if they're missing from the book. You have
> to guess and try to piece the text together. That's why
> Bookshare asks us to submit books with page numbers if they
> scan well enough. So that's a clarity issue rather than an
> automation problem.
> >>  As for the formatting, Bookshare daisy files
> do have font size changes, bolded text, as well as page and
> often chapter navigation. The catch is that not all daisy
> players work in the same way. Some older players like the
> Maestro don't handle chapter navigation at all. On the flip
> side, the now free Freedom Scientific daisy reader for JAWS
> and Pac Mate uses chapter navigation very well. Since there
> is such a wide range of functionality among daisy players,
> Bookshare has chosen to write their code to validate against
> the standards from the Daisy Consortium instead of writing
> for specific devices. So the old cliché "results vary"
> applies here. (smile)
> >>  Interestingly, the daisy format can support
> a caption element. However, when Bookshare staff asked if
> we'd be willing to use it to mark captions or sidebars,
> about half of the volunteers said that it would be too
> burdensome. It became a bit of a controversial issue. The
> idea was dropped at that point. I was disappointed because I
> thought it would go a long way toward making things like
> sidebars and text boxes more distinguishable when they
> interrupt the flow of text in a book. I'd like to see the
> staff revisit the issue, making it possible for those of us
> who want to label captions to do so. If they made it
> optional, I think people would gradually begin trying it,
> especially after seeing the improvements in books they read
> with better navigation. Those that felt uncomfortable with
> the process could skip it with no pressure or anything.
> >>  Monica Willyard
> >> "The best way to predict the future is to create
> it." -- Peter Drucker
> >>  
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *From:* bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [ mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> *On Behalf Of *Lynn Zelvin
> >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:07 PM
> >> *To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> *Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Re: question for
> member bookshare readers re tables of contents
> >> 
> >> There was a point where just being able to read a
> book at all was considered wonderful enough and better
> scanning quality was the best we could hope for. I'm
> appreciating all the thought it seems is now being put into
> formatting and other improvements.  That being said,
> we're really working with very inadequate tools in trying to
> do better with this. We're asking the question as to the
> best compromise solution considering that there are probably
> a half dozen different formats in which people are reading
> these books - braille with several different page widths,
> text-to-speech with some people just sitting back and
> listening and others actively moving through the text as
> they read, some with a screen reader on their computer and
> some with a DAISY player on a computer or stand-alone
> device. Some use enlarged print where some enlarge the text
> meaning again we have different page widths, and others
> leave the original text and use software to magnify their
> screen image. Some are using combinations both looking at
> the words and listening. I've occasionally had things I did
> with both speech and braille, although I don't know if
> anyone actually reads that way. There are probably more that
> I'm not thinking about.
> >> 
> >> It's impossible to find one best way for all of
> these.   The answer is in being able to 
> use formatting and style codes, or at least in being able to
> standardize. and then for the final formats to make use of
> those codes. So if you code something as a page number, when
> converting to braille, it can be, for example, placed in the
> top right corner regardless of how wide the page is, could
> be spaced differently for different presentations of
> enlargement,  and could contain a code that lets the
> daisy player actually know it's a page number. a line of
> dots in tables of contents could be present in visual and
> braille presentations, adjusted for page width,
> and   be active links to the actual page. 
> >> I'd thought bookshare was doing some of that, but
> as I do tend to ignore formatting when I read, I can't say
> I've noticed.   I don't use daisy players or
> anything else fancy as I  don't like the speech engines
> they use. I'm sure they must certainly be doing this with
> the NIMAC books that  we aren't allowed to access. I
> was going to go poking around in some of the books I already
> have, but it would be easier for someone who already knows
> to give an answer. Even though they don't ask volunteers to
> add in codes, I'd assumed they did some things by
> automation, like  coding as page numbers sequential
> numbers that appear at the beginning and end of pages. 
> If they're not, considering all the work volunteers are now
> putting into these books, it seems we should ask them for a
> few codes we can use.  Validators who chose could then
> properly code tables of contents, chapter headings, page
> numbers, and footnotes, at the least. The volunteer manual I
> saw did recommend  enough  standardization of such
> things that it does seem bookshare could be making use of
> such efforts in the conversion process. Maybe they're afraid
> not enough people would validate books if they were expected
> to do this, but since some *are* doing it, maybe we could
> get some guidance from them. Maybe if they are not making
> full use of our efforts, we could prod them?
> >> 
> >> Am I correct in my new reckoning that there is a
> gap between volunteers and paid staff, that people making
> decisions about what to automate and how to convert books
> are not interacting with people doing scanning and
> validating? Is it that the hopes, which I share, are pinned
> on getting text from publishers in the future and thus not
> needing to go through all this? Well, even then we'll still
> need these tools to include older books in the collection.
> In the past validators were asked to do simpler things like
> make sure all the pages seem to be there. It's a lot more
> now and I think that's good, but what a shame for us here
> making such compromise decisions when we could do something
> that will really be used properly. Has this been discussed
> already?
> >> 
> >> Lynn
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